Explain This:

[Winman]

We've been through this before.

Are you willing to deal with the Arminian article of faith yet?

Article IV — That this grace of God is the beginning, continuance, and accomplishment of an good, even to this extent, that the regenerate man himself, without that prevenient or assisting; awakening, following, and co-operative grace, can neither think, will, nor do good, nor withstand any temptations to evil; so that all good deeds or movements that can be conceived must be ascribed to the grace of God in Christ. But, as respects the mode of the operation of this grace, it is not irresistible, inasmuch as it is written concerning many that they have resisted the Holy Ghost,—Acts vii, and elsewhere in many places.

I've only been asking you to deal with this article of ARMINIAN theology for about 3-4 days now.

Just to be sure... Article 4 above is NOT Calvinistic theology. It is one of the 5 articles of Arminian theology that you say you ,,hold.

I read this quickly and am in general agreement. But we are speaking of two seperate issues, grace and life (regeneration), they are not the same. We must have God's grace which are the promises in his word in order to believe, but this is not life(regeneration). You are not made alive by a promise of God given you. You must place faith in this promise before you receive life(regeneration). God's promise to Abraham was grace, but that promise alone did not give him life. It was only AFTER Abraham believed God's promise that righteousness was imputed to him and he received life(regeneration).

 

[annsni]

Must you say that on every thread? A spiritually dead people perish...spiritually alive people don't. That's the Bible, not what I say.

This was the original quote. I was once spiritually dead but now I am alive. So a spiritually dead person may not perish because they may someday be alive.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 addresses this:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Clearly not every spiritually dead person perishes. Yes, a spiritually dead person will perish if he physically dies before he is brought to spiritual life but it does not guarantee a forever perishing if one is spiritually dead right now. I do believe that is what Luke is saying.

 

[Don]

Don—not tryn to say ur wrong—just wondering—what do u mean by “claim salvation”?

(in the context of the post: one who claims to be saved)

 

[Don]

This was the original quote. I was once spiritually dead but now I am alive. So a spiritually dead person may not perish because they may someday be alive.

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 addresses this:

Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Clearly not every spiritually dead person perishes. Yes, a spiritually dead person will perish if he physically dies before he is brought to spiritual life but it does not guarantee a forever perishing if one is spiritually dead right now. I do believe that is what Luke is saying.

In that case--and give me a little bit of latitude, and give it some thought--based on what I've read...I think both Luke and Webdog agree....

 

[quantumfaith]

He said he will NEVER agree with me on this. Therefore HE said he was not teachable. That is plain enough for anyone to discern.

BTW, what IS your soteriology? Isn't it just something you kind of came up with yourself?

Luke please do not be so assertively disingenous. I did not say I was "unteachable", is that what you said? If so, that, like everything else is simply you opinion. Selah

 

[quantumfaith]

Web & Luke-The theological “odd couple”—I think u 2 need each other more than either of u realize-:laugh:

GE: You must have watched them on TV Land. Certainly you are not old enough for the original?

 

[Luke2427]

Luke please do not be so assertively disingenous. I did not say I was "unteachable", is that what you said? If so, that, like everything else is simply you opinion. Selah

No quantum- when you say, "I WILL NEVER AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS" you are saying you are not teachable on it- period.

Webdog mentioned the fact that I will never agree with Darwinism and then asked if that meant I was not teachable?

The answer is YES. I am not teachable when it comes to Darwinism.

When you say you will never agree with Calvinism then you are saying you are not teachable on it.

 

[Gabriel Elijah]

GE: You must have watched them on TV Land. Certainly you are not old enough for the original?

lol-no I'm not that old (I'm n my early 30's)--but my Granddad liked them & use to talk about tha show-

 

[quantumfaith]

No quantum- when you say, "I WILL NEVER AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS" you are saying you are not teachable on it- period.

Webdog mentioned the fact that I will never agree with Darwinism and then asked if that meant I was not teachable?

The answer is YES. I am not teachable when it comes to Darwinism.

When you say you will never agree with Calvinism then you are saying you are not teachable on it.

You know, as badly as I want to. I, for the time being, am simply not going to respond to such a ridiculous lack of common sense.

 

[Robert Snow]

No, it isn't. EVERYONE is spiritually dead at some point and MANY of those who are spiritually dead do not perish. So that is not true.

The second part of your remark is accurate. Spiritually alive people do not perish for this reason:

"Those he called he also justified and those he justified he also glorified..." Romans 8.

This effectual call makes alive and inevitably ends up in the justification and eventual glorification of the one called.

Yes, Romans 8 shows that those who choose to respond and believe the Gospel are the called who are justified and end up glorified. God has predestined that those who believe His Word will be glorified, no falling from grace.

 

[annsni]

Yes, Romans 8 shows that those who choose to respond and believe the Gospel are the called who are justified and end up glorified. God has predestined that those who believe His Word will be glorified, no falling from grace.

I just don't understand this thinking at all. We're not talking about foreknowledge but predestination. God decides the end. It's not that God sees the end then basically does nothing on this end that changes anything. I honestly can't imagine people say "Well, God looks off into the future and sees who will believe in Him and then He chooses those to be His elect." HUH??? I see NONE of that in Scripture. I don't see God choosing because of what man does at all. I see God choosing because of His good pleasure.

 

[Winman]

No quantum- when you say, "I WILL NEVER AGREE WITH YOU ON THIS" you are saying you are not teachable on it- period.

Webdog mentioned the fact that I will never agree with Darwinism and then asked if that meant I was not teachable?

The answer is YES. I am not teachable when it comes to Darwinism.

When you say you will never agree with Calvinism then you are saying you are not teachable on it.

This is not true, I will never agree with evolution, but I spent nearly a year debating evolutionists and know probably more than most of what they believe such as the Hopeful Monster and Puncuated Equalibrism (sp?). A person can know and learn much about someone else's beliefs and still disagree with them.

 

[Luke2427]

This is not true, I will never agree with evolution, but I spent nearly a year debating evolutionists and know probably more than most of what they believe such as the Hopeful Monster and Puncuated Equalibrism (sp?). A person can know and learn much about someone else's beliefs and still disagree with them.

OK, Winman, thanks.

 

[Winman]

Luke, and to add to my last post, when I came to BB about two years ago, I knew almost nothing about Calvinism. But through debate here, and reading many good articles by both Cals and non-Cals, the more I studied and learned on the subject, the more firmly convinced I have become that Cavinism is error.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke, and to add to my last post, when I came to BB about two years ago, I knew almost nothing about Calvinism. But through debate here, and reading many good articles by both Cals and non-Cals, the more I studied and learned on the subject, the more firmly convinced I have become that Cavinism is error.

Like the relationship of the sun to ice and clay, the truth melts some and hardens others.

PS: Let me hasten to add I am not saying that you are not saved- just hardened to the DoG.

 

[Jerome]

Re: "Regeneration before faith" speculations expressed here

Wise words from eighteenth-century Particular Baptist Abraham Booth:

Regeneration must precede faith. This, though assumed as a certain fact, may be justly doubted: for the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ

 

[DHK]

I will be glad to pray for you but your certainty is unfortunate- it means you are not teachable, doesn't it?

Perhaps the contrary is true.

 

[Luke2427]

Perhaps the contrary is true.

I hear you. Of course since I was raised a Free Will Baptist and preached as one for nearly a decade and THEN learned the truth of the DoG it doesn't seem to pan out so well.

Has there been any real change in your theology since you were a child?

 

[DHK]

I hear you. Of course since I was raised a Free Will Baptist and preached as one for nearly a decade and THEN learned the truth of the DoG it doesn't seem to pan out so well.

Has there been any real change in your theology since you were a child?

I was raised a Roman Catholic, and then saved as an adult. What do you think?

 

[Winman]

Like the relationship of the sun to ice and clay, the truth melts some and hardens others.

PS: Let me hasten to add I am not saying that you are not saved- just hardened to the DoG.

Luke, I see some truth in Calvinism, but much error. I was not raised under teachers, the vast majority of what I believe comes from personal study of the scriptures, although I have also been influenced by several very knowledgeable pastors. My current pastor teaches college courses in theology. Know what? I have differed with him several times and presented different views to him with supporting scripture and in one instance, he confessed that I had presented a very sound argument, and convinced him of my view. And he has done the same to me on several views. Our biggest difference is you see grace/regeneration/life --->faith ---> salvation, where I see grace ---> faith ---> life/regeneration. I cannot see that scripture supports a person having spiritual life of any kind while a person is still in their trespasses and sins. And the scriptures clearly teach we are justified and forgiven of sins only through faith, therefore faith must precede regeneration. The grace that leads us to repentance is not making one spiritually alive, it is convicting and convincing of a dead man to believe on Christ. The very instant the dead man believes on Christ his sins are forgiven and he receives eternal life.