Explain This:

[Winman]

Why, then, does Jesus tell Nicodemus that he must be born again? Now remember: the "born again" language of John 3 is all passive, meaning that this is something that Nicodemus cannot do; it must be done to him.

The Archangel

Archangel, all the sinner can do is believe on Jesus. That is all we can do. We do not have the power to regenerate ourselves, make ourselves alive, or make ourselves born again, only Jesus has this power. But to those who receive him and believe on his name, to them he gives power to "become" the sons of God.

 

[DHK]

Life comes first.

You have put forth an unnecessary hypothetical that doesn't make sense. It is not a matter of what comes first. Life is eternal. How can it not come first? It is always there. Appropriating eternal is by faith. One must appropriate eternal life by faith. Without faith there is no salvation.

It also comes during.

Your statements are illogical. Eternal life is eternal. But to gain it one must have faith. In an unsaved person's life, of course, faith must come first. "He that believeth hath life; he that believeth not the Son of God hath not life."
Faith must come first.

It also comes after and continues on.

Of course. Why wouldn't it. It is eternal.

Whoever believes will have and does have and has had life.

I have never doubted this at all? How else would you define eternal life?

Just as whoever breathes and will continue to breath does have and will have and has had life.

And that life, that eternal life, is initially gained through faith.
The Christian life is lived by faith. That is a more simple way to put it.

But life still precedes breathing.

Life precedes believing as well.

You are just too profound here. Eternal life is always there for the asking. If any man wants it he simply has to ask. That is why belief precedes the appropriation of eternal life. Eternal life is always there for the taking of those who want it.

Jesus said, "Except ye be born again ye cannot SEE the Kingdom of God."

I John 5:1 "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God."

Which came first? Believing or being born of God? Being born of God.

In order to be born of God, one must believe. This truth is made clear in John 1:12,13. "even to them that believe on his name.

Whosoever serves as a police officer has been inducted into police force.

Being inducted into the police force precedes serving as a police officer.

Just so "whosoever believeth HAS BEEN born of God" means that being born of God precedes believing.

Not according to John 1:12. This is a misinterpretation of yours.
Those that are born of God have believed.
Those that have been saved have believed.
Whosoever has believed has been saved.
Belief always comes first.

 

[Amy.G]

Why, then, does Jesus tell Nicodemus that he must be born again? Now remember: the "born again" language of John 3 is all passive, meaning that this is something that Nicodemus cannot do; it must be done to him.

The Archangel

I'm not a Greek scholar, but I understand English which is what my Bible is written in.

Scripture says that we are justified by faith.

If you're born again before faith, you are born again before you have been justified, which makes you a born again, unjustified sinner.

 

[Luke2427]

It's not possible because scripture says that we are justified by faith. If life comes before faith, then you are not justified, but you are born again. That does not make sense according the word of God.

Why does it not make sense.

You have not given a single verse of Scripture to support this idea that being born again CANNOT precede faith and justification.

You just keep repeating that it is not possible- why? Because you don't think it is?

It doesn't make sense- Why? Because you say so?

Romans 8:30 says, "Those whom he predestined he also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified."

The call comes before the justification. The call makes alive. It precedes justification.

 

[DHK]

Why does it not make sense.

You have not given a single verse of Scripture to support this idea that being born again CANNOT precede faith and justification.

You just keep repeating that it is not possible- why? Because you don't think it is?

It doesn't make sense- Why? Because you say so?

Romans 8:30 says, "Those whom he predestined he also called and those whom he called he also justified and those whom he justified he also glorified."

The call comes before the justification. The call makes alive. It precedes justification.

That is a twisting of Scripture. He calls or elects according to his foreknowledge. In Romans 8:30 there is no cause and effect list given.

 

[Amy.G]

Why does it not make sense.

You have not given a single verse of Scripture to support this idea that being born again CANNOT precede faith and justification.

I did give you scripture from Romans. We are justified by faith. That is scripture.

You must have faith to be justified. You will not receive eternal life until you have been justified. To be born again is to have eternal life. You cannot have eternal life until you are justified and you must have faith before you can be justified.....because......we are justified by faith.

I don't know any simpler way to put it.

 

[Luke2427]

You have put forth an unnecessary hypothetical that doesn't make sense.

It makes perfect sense- you are just not able to follow it.

It is not a matter of what comes first. Life is eternal. How can it not come first? It is always there. Appropriating eternal is by faith. One must appropriate eternal life by faith. Without faith there is no salvation.

It IS about what comes first- that is what we are talking about. Does spiritual life take place in a man BEFORE he can believe- the answer is clearly, yes, as we have shown.

In order to be born of God, one must believe. This truth is made clear in John 1:12,13. "even to them that believe on his name.

Not according to John 1:12. This is a misinterpretation of yours.
Those that are born of God have believed.
Those that have been saved have believed.
Whosoever has believed has been saved.
Belief always comes first.

I CANNOT see why you think a single word of John 1:12 supports your position that life (in the person) must FOLLOW faith.

It is not there.

This is because of depravity. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he. I Corinthians 2:14

Why?

They are spiritually discerned. And the natural man is spiritually dead.

This is the VERY reason WHY we must be born again.

Nicodemus came to Jesus boasting of what he perceived. "We know that thou art a teacher come from God."

Jesus burst his bubble showing him that he cannot perceive ANYTHING until he is born again.

"Verily, verily I say unto you that except ye be born agains ye cannot SEE the Kingdom of God."

This is why I John 5:1 says that life FOLLOWS being born of God.

"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God."

 

[Winman]

Both DHK and I have provided scripture that says you must believe to have life, there are many of them. You cannot have life until your sins are forgiven, and you cannot be justified until you first believe.

 

[Luke2427]

I did give you scripture from Romans. We are justified by faith. That is scripture.

You must have faith to be justified. You will not receive eternal life until you have been justified. To be born again is to have eternal life. You cannot have eternal life until you are justified and you must have faith before you can be justified.....because......we are justified by faith.

I don't know any simpler way to put it.

The Scripture says that we are justified by faith- I believe that we are justified by faith. I do not believe we are justified apart from faith. I have said that clearly to you better than twice now.

But you keep contending that life cannot precede justification and you cannot support that with Scripture.

All you can do is keep giving Scripture that says that faith is necessary for justification- a point on which I have already made clear we already agree.

 

[Luke2427]

Both DHK and I have provided scripture that says you must believe to have life, there are many of them. You cannot have life until your sins are forgiven, and you cannot be justified until you first believe.

No you haven't- not one.

 

[Amy.G]

The Scripture says that we are justified by faith- I believe that we are justified by faith. I do not believe we are justified apart from faith. I have said that clearly to you better than twice now.

But you keep contending that life cannot precede justification and you cannot support that with Scripture.

All you can do is keep giving Scripture that says that faith is necessary for justification- a point on which I have already made clear we already agree.

Sigh. Ok.

 

[Iconoclast]

The passage states: "which were born....of God. It speaks of the new birth, the same one that Christ elaborated on in John chapter 3. How does this new birth come? "Even to them that believe on his name"
It comes by faith. Salvation is always by faith. "By grace are ye saved through faith." "Therefore being justified by faith."
We see that through this passage (John 1:12,13) and many others, that salvation is not only all of God, but it is also by faith. Faith is required. Faith is not a work, but it is a requirement of God on man's part in order to be saved. Without faith no man can be saved.
Leave the peripherals alone. If a man is standing on his head and by faith trusts in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, then that person (according to the Scriptures) is saved. Salvation comes by faith. That faith comes from the heart. It is a heart belief. Faith always has an object. The object of our faith must be Christ.
God in his sovereign will and grace has given every man a choice--a free will. He may already know the outcome. He doesn't force people to make a decision, but he knows what that decision is. Man is not a robot. He decides whether or not to reject or accept Christ. God Himself set those parameters according to His sovereign will. It is man's choice. Without it we would all be robots.
You mean without your instruction we wouldn't be correctly instructed. Correct?
If that is a slam against Godly believing Baptists on this board, then I take it as a personal insult, and give it as a warning to you not to post such.
Are you saying that Baptists who differ from your theology are not saved and never can be?
Again, Godly believers that disagree with your theology are probably not saved until they agree with your theology. If they don't agree with you the have a false philosophy that will eventually get exposed. Isn't this an arrogant position to hold?

In the bible salvation is always by or through Faith.......never because of faith

Faith is not a work, but it is a requirement of God on man's part in order to be saved. Without faith no man can be saved.

Saving faith is the gift of God. Fallen man does not have it,unless God gives it to him. Then you say;

Leave the peripherals alone. If a man is standing on his head and by faith trusts in the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, then that person (according to the Scriptures) is saved. Salvation comes by faith. That faith comes from the heart. It is a heart belief. Faith always has an object. The object of our faith must be Christ.

Not so....saving faith,repentance and grace come from God alone. But I see why you resist this right here when you say this;

God in his sovereign will and grace has given every man a choice--a free will.

Free will is a false philosophical idea. Fallen man has ..self willwhich hates God and His truth. A proper understanding of the fall,and Rom6:17-18 would be helpful here...you could read Luther on bondage of the will, or spurgeons free will a slave,among many other works for help here.
next you say this;

Man is not a robot. He decides whether or not to reject or accept Christ.

man decides nothing, he obeys and is bound by his sin nature,and unless Jesus sets him free, as He taught in jn 8....no man will ever be saved.
then you resort to this;

You mean without your instruction we wouldn't be correctly instructed. Correct?
If that is a slam against Godly believing Baptists on this board, then I take it as a personal insult, and give it as a warning to you not to post such.
Are you saying that Baptists who differ from your theology are not saved and never can be?

Rather then deal scripturally you seek to twist what I have posted,and then make some kind of threat??? I said no such thing. I just said that there is a broad spectrum of beliefs,and guess what....not all those beliefs are correct.
We all have to agree with you to be able to post?
You have your mind closed and have evidently picked and selected what you "feel" is acceptable. Not everyone agrees with you and your philosophy.

Again you offer another ad hominem attack;

Again, Godly believers that disagree with your theology are probably not saved until they agree with your theology. If they don't agree with you the have a false philosophy that will eventually get exposed. Isn't this an arrogant position to hold?

[/QUOTE]
This in itself shows confusion on your part....godly believers/are probably not saved????what kind of nonsense is that? Your railing against calvinism and calvinists is consuming you.
I am confident in the view of scripture I hold,and am still learning. You have not made any scriptural arguement that is adding anything to the discussion,and as time permits I will go back and read your past posts to see what kind of theologicaL balance you hold.
What I do see is that when someone cannot speak to the scriptures they just say.....oh you are arrogant as if that is a magical formula to give them the high ground. Well friend I will go with what I know,and you are free to believe or not believe what verses are offered.
It is God alone that reveals or conceals truth, not man.

10And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?

11He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Godly Baptists hear the Shepherd,goats do not.

26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

The words of Jesus stand......

42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

43Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[Winman]

No you haven't- not one.

I provided John 11:25 and John 6:40, DHK provided John 20:31, John 1:12 and several others. All of these verses say you first believe to have life. I don't expect you to accept this, but you have been shown.

 

[Luke2427]

I provided John 11:25 and John 6:40, DHK provided John 20:31, John 1:12 and several others. All of these verses say you first believe to have life. I don't expect you to accept this, but you have been shown.

I dealt with some of those- you never responded.

You just copy and paste verses that have nothing to do with what you believe and then color them red and blue and think that you have really proven something.

 

[DHK]

It makes perfect sense- you are just not able to follow it.

I follow what the Bible teaches; not your philosophy.

It IS about what comes first- that is what we are talking about. Does spiritual life take place in a man BEFORE he can believe- the answer is clearly, yes, as we have shown.

You have NEVER shown this to be true in the Scriptures. To do so you have to take Scriptures out of context and ignore the totality of Scriptures. Faith comes first, every time. The fact that eternal life is already there is irrelevant. That is what makes your position so illogical. It is like walking into a restaurant to sit and have a meal. What comes first: ordering the food or eating the meal. The food is always there to order. But unless you avail yourself of that opportunity and actually do the ordering and eat the food, it avails you nothing. But the food is always there to order.
See how ridiculous your question is. Eternal life is always there. It is yours to appropriate and enjoy. Jesus said: "I am come that you might have life and life more abundantly." How? By faith. It can only be appropriated by faith.

I CANNOT see why you think a single word of John 1:12 supports your position that life (in the person) must FOLLOW faith.

It is not there.

I read the words very clearly (perhaps you cannot see them) even to them that believe on his name.

This is because of depravity. The natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God neither can he. I Corinthians 2:14

Why?

They are spiritually discerned. And the natural man is spiritually dead.

True. Until they are born again and have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit which is the comparison that is being made in 1Cor.2:12-14. So why take Scripture out of context?

This is the VERY reason WHY we must be born again.

That we might have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit--yes. And all that comes by faith.

Nicodemus came to Jesus boasting of what he perceived. "We know that thou art a teacher come from God."

Jesus burst his bubble showing him that he cannot perceive ANYTHING until he is born again.

"Verily, verily I say unto you that except ye be born agains ye cannot SEE the Kingdom of God."

And Nicodemus did become a believer. He put his faith and trust in Christ. We see him later exercising his faith along with Joseph of Arimathea and other women at the burial of Christ. He became "a believer," meaning "he believed."

This is why I John 5:1 says that life FOLLOWS being born of God.

"Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ HAS BEEN born of God."

Correct. He is born again because he has believed.
The same is true of the saved. They are saved because they have believed.
Faith or belief comes first every time.

 

[jbh28]

Faith is faith. It is trust, confidence, etc.
Why do you make faith into some magical mystical esoterical unexplainable experience that only God can supernaturally give and that you cannot therefore understand. This is the most ridiculous position I have heard, and yet it is the position of almost all Calvinists.

Statements like "most ridiculous" are immature and are going against the person and not the subject. Also shows a lack of support for ones position when they have to resort to this.

Faith is very simple, and saving faith doesn't come from God. If it did we would be no more than robots in the hand of God.

false dichotomy. It doesn't make anybody a robot

God did not create us to be robots. He gave us a free will; free choice; a choice to do good or evil; a choice to accept or reject Christ.

Never denied that.

In God's sovereign will, within His sovereign paramaters, He has chosen to give man the choice even though he knows the outcome of that choice. It could be no other way. Man is responsible for the choices his makes.

Very true man has a choice and he is responsible for his actions.

He is not a robot.

straw man

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

True

Faith comes first--always.
That faith is not provided by God.

False. Faith comes at the same time. Faith is a gift from God as I supplied passages over.

The only faith that is provided by God is when a person is a believer. God does not give the unsaved, the unregenerate, faith.

Yes he does. You just not saying so doesn't make it that way. I already gave passages where faith was called a gift from God and it was talking about salvation

That goes exactly contrary to Scripture and nowhere in Scripture does it teach that, except if one twists Scripture to squeeze that doctrine out of it. God does not give faith to the unsaved; the unregenerate.
He must put faith in Christ of his own free will.

Already supplied passages.

But, the Calvinist will reply: He is dead. How can a dead person do that?
Now, the Calvinist must learn what the meaning of the word "death" is in the Bible. It doesn't mean annihiliation, without physical life, etc.
Death always means separation.
Physical death is separation of the spirit from the body.
Spiritual death is separation from God because of sin.
The Second Death is separation from God for all eternity--the final and ultimate sentence of God.
Death always means separation.

A person dead in their trespasses and sins is a spiritually dead person. They are separated from spiritual things. They want nothing to do with God.

A person that is separated (dead) still has the power to call out to God. He still has the power to have faith. He is only separated from God. It doesn't mean that he can be likened to a lifeless corpse. You have the wrong analogy. That is not the meaning of death. It is separation.

You have a wrong application. The Bible is very clear that the unregenerate doesn't seek after God. The analogy is from the Bible(Ephesians 2) so if it is the wrong analogy, you will have to take that up with God.

Faith is not difficult to understand. As I can put faith in my wife (confidence or depend on her), so I can put faith in Jesus Christ. Faith has an object. Saving faith's object is Jesus Christ.

And the unregenerate doesn't want to put faith in Jesus Christ. They have no desire to put their faith in God. Something must change for them to want to. This comes from God.

 

[jbh28]

Correct. He is born again because he has believed.
The same is true of the saved. They are saved because they have believed.
Faith or belief comes first every time.

Oh, so man is born of God by the will of Man(faith) and not of the will of God

 

[Luke2427]

I provided John 11:25 and John 6:40, DHK provided John 20:31, John 1:12 and several others. All of these verses say you first believe to have life. I don't expect you to accept this, but you have been shown.

John 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

This does not say a THING about faith PRECEDING regeneration- not a word. It doesn't even touch on the subject.

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.[/COLOR]

That is the will of God that sent Christ that everyone that believes will have everlasting life. This verse does not say a word, once again, to support this notion of yours that faith must precede life.

It is the will of every parent that every child of theirs who breathes will live a long life. Does that statement demand that breathing PRECEDES life? No. It is simply a statement of fact that a parent will that every child of their breathing will live a long life.

The same language in John 6:40- To demand that that verse teach that faith precedes regeneration is silliness.

But just for the record, in context, Jesus tells us there how this takes place.

He said four verses later, "No one can come to me unless my father who sent me draw him..."

A few verses later beginning in 62 Jesus states that they would not believe if they saw him rise to heaven. He says that he has been speaking the words of life to them and they STILL don't believe and then he tells them why in verse 65 "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the father."

Your passage John 20:21 I have dealt with numerous times with no response.

So we've covered it. Either come up with a counter argument to our interpretations of these passages or be marginalized as one who just proof texts and in a lazy fashion without doing the work of exposition.

 

[Winman]

Oh, so man is born of God by the will of Man(faith) and not of the will of God

No, no man is saved of his own will, man will always seek to save himself through works. It is God's will to save us through faith in his Son. This is why Jesus came into this world and revealed his Father's will to us. It was Jesus himself that told us we would be saved if we believe on him. When you believe on Jesus you are submitting to the Father's will.

 

[psalms109:31]

Dead

Anyone and everyone is dead without the words of God now the word of Jesus.

Spirit and life is in the words of Jesus.

If someone never hears the words of God they are dead and remains dead, it is our responsibility to reach them with the words of God, because God gave us that task.

They will never seek God on their own and they have no excuse for God has revealed Himself through what He has made.

Since God does show no favoritism everyone has a chance to believe and He will only save those who believe in His Son from condemnation and you can do nothing to change His word.

You are unregenerate without the word of God and never will be regenerated without it.

God is no respecter of person everyone has the same chance for salvation to believe in His Son.

We will not see or enter the kingdom of God unless they are born again not to believe. God is no respecter of person or shows no favoritism all men have the same chance for salvation Jesus.