Explain This:

[annsni]

There is a "logical" order to salvation (ordo salutis) but not a temporal order.

A great synopsis:

Latin, "the order of salvation." The ordo salutis is the theological doctrine that deals with the logical sequencing of the benefits of redemption as we are united to Christ which are applied to us by the Holy Spirit. This first thing to remember is that we must never separate the benefits (regeneration, justification, sanctification) from the Benefactor (Jesus Christ).

The entire process (election, redemption, regeneration, etc.) is the work of God in Christ and is by grace alone. Election is the superstructure of our ordo salutis, but not itself the application of redemption.

Regeneration, the work of the Holy Spirit which brings us into a living union with Christ, has a causal priority over the other aspects of the process of salvation. God opens our eyes, we see. God circumcises/ unplugs our ears, we hear. Jesus calls a dead and buried Lazarus out of the grave, he comes; In the same way, the Holy Spirit applies regeneration, (opening our spiritual eyes and renewing our affections), infallibly resulting in faith.

All the benefits of redemption such as conversion (faith & repentance), justification, sanctification and perseverance presuppose the existence of spiritual life. The work of applying God's grace is a unitary process given to the elect simultaneously. This is instantaneous, but there is definitely a causal order (regeneration giving rise to all the rest).

Though these benefits cannot be separated, it is helpful to distinguish them. Therefore, instead of imposing a chronological order we should view these as a unitary work of God to bring us into union with Christ. We must always keep in mind that the orders expressed in the following articles occur together or happen simultaneously like heat and fire. All aspects of the work of God continue together throughout the life of a Christian.

Yep. As I said, it's like birth. In that first breath (that stems from life) so many things happen to the child to make them now a fully independent human being from the closing of a vessel in their heart to now be able to use oxygen in their lungs to the independent breathing, it all happens in order but within a heartbeat of each other. All we see is a child born, take a breath and live.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

You suggest that this poses a "vexing problem" to Calvinists.


It does not. In fact, your statement above is the heart of Reformed theology!

GOD is the only one who can do what God can do. We CANNOT comply with the command to believe in Christ -- PERIOD.

Yet, the gospel is NOT an unreasonable demand. Why? Because, "With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

Scary, right?

Should be!

Anything less than GOD doing the work of salvation is not indeed salvation. No matter how human-centered one's theology, it all eventually boils down to God. Humans cannot justify. They cannot adopt. They cannot regenerate. They cannot even believe until they are made alive by God's grace first.

Grasp those SCRIPTURAL tenets and you will grasp why the Reformed Doctrines of Grace are true. Fail to grasp those Scriptural tenets and you will forever be dependent on a work of man for salvation.

WOW.....well said Brother. Thats a wrap.

 

[Old Union Brother]

Well, I've already shown them but that's OK if you don't accept them. I've just never seen a dead man respond to anything ever.

I've never seen it either but I've read about it:

Was Lazarus dead? Did he hear Jesus when he called?

Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

What about the dead man in Nain. Did he Hear Jesus when he called?

Luk 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

 

[jbh28]

They respond to the Spirit of God. It's not difficult for the Lord to speak to the dead.

Also, your Calvinistic understanding of death is wrong. Death speaks of separation, not inability.

so physically dead people can walk around and breathe and run? If death doesn't mean inability, then they should be able to do those things since it only means separation.

or, death means exactly as we say it was. a physically dead person cannot do physical things like a spiritually dead person cannot do spiritual things.

 

[Luke2427]

This has been explained many times. Go back and read DHK's earlier post. Spiritually dead people can believe, the rich man who died and went to hell believed, only it was too late for him. I posted John 11:25 where Jesus said, "he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live". Jesus also said "the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God, and they that hear shall live." So, the scriptures clearly teach the spiritually dead have the ability to believe. The early church fathers all believed this until Augustine came along. Augustine introduced much error, and Calvin received this error from Augustine.

We have told you numerous times how this works and you refuse to recognize it.

It is the CALL of God that MAKES alive so one CAN believe.

But the dead do not respond until made alive.

The natural man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God (I Corinthians 2:14)

He must be made alive spiritually because while he is dead spiritually he is nothing but natural and the natural man CANNOT believe; he cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God.

 

[preacher4truth]

I've never seen it either but I've read about it:

Was Lazarus dead? Did he hear Jesus when he called?

Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

What about the dead man in Nain. Did he Hear Jesus when he called?

Luk 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

God's very Word GIVES life. From creation, until now. This had nothing to do with the abilities of Lazarus nor the one he healed in the bier. It all came from Him.

 

[webdog]

so physically dead people can walk around and breathe and run? If death doesn't mean inability, then they should be able to do those things since it only means separation.

or, death means exactly as we say it was. a physically dead person cannot do physical things like a spiritually dead person cannot do spiritual things.

Physically dead people can reject and refuse? Physically dead people can break the law?

 

[Luke2427]

I've never seen it either but I've read about it:

Was Lazarus dead? Did he hear Jesus when he called?

Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

What about the dead man in Nain. Did he Hear Jesus when he called?

Luk 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

It is the CALL of God that MAKES alive so one CAN believe.

But the dead do not respond until made alive.

The natural man CANNOT receive the things of the Spirit of God (I Corinthians 2:14)

He must be made alive spiritually because while he is dead spiritually he is nothing but natural and the natural man CANNOT believe; he cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God.

This is what Jesus said in John 6:63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

The WORDS of Christ regenerate God's elect.

Dead people do not believe- they are made alive BY the call of God and then, now that they are alive, they believe.

Hope this helps.:love2:

 

[Luke2427]

Physically dead people can reject and refuse? Physically dead people can break the law?

It is irrelevant.

Rejecting and refusing and breaking the law are things of the flesh. NO spirit is necessary for those thigns.

Spirit IS necessary so that one can receive the things of the Spirit of God.

 

[jbh28]

Physically dead people can reject and refuse? Physically dead people can break the law?

physically? no physically dead people cannot do PHYSICAL things like spiritually dead people cannot do SPIRITUAL things. so can a physically dead person reject and refuse? no, he's physically dead. can a spiritually dead person reject and refuse? yes, he's spiritually dead, not physically dead

 

[webdog]

It is irrelevant.

Rejecting and refusing and breaking the law are things of the flesh. NO spirit is necessary for those thigns.

Spirit IS necessary so that one can receive the things of the Spirit of God.

JBH, you, et al are comparing the physical to the spiritual, as that is what I replied to. GlFredrick asked if a dead person can believe. My question is the same...can a dead person refuse or break any law? It's quite relevant.

 

[quantumfaith]

You suggest that this poses a "vexing problem" to Calvinists.


It does not. In fact, your statement above is the heart of Reformed theology!

GOD is the only one who can do what God can do. We CANNOT comply with the command to believe in Christ -- PERIOD.

Yet, the gospel is NOT an unreasonable demand. Why? Because, "With men [it is] impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible."

Scary, right?

Should be!

Anything less than GOD doing the work of salvation is not indeed salvation. No matter how human-centered one's theology, it all eventually boils down to God. Humans cannot justify. They cannot adopt. They cannot regenerate. They cannot even believe until they are made alive by God's grace first.

Grasp those SCRIPTURAL tenets and you will grasp why the Reformed Doctrines of Grace are true. Fail to grasp those Scriptural tenets and you will forever be dependent on a work of man for salvation.

First of all the choice of words comes from the author who penned them.
Second, just because you say CANNOT in all caps and bold, does not make it so.

And furthermore, I do not agree, ascribe nor accept Your conclusions. Just as you do not mine.

Have a nice day.

 

[annsni]

I've never seen it either but I've read about it:

Was Lazarus dead? Did he hear Jesus when he called?

Joh 11:41 Then they took away the stone from the place where the dead was laid. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou hast heard me.
Joh 11:42 And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the people which stand by I said it, that they may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 11:43 And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth.
Joh 11:44 And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.

What about the dead man in Nain. Did he Hear Jesus when he called?

Luk 7:14 And he came and touched the bier: and they that bare him stood still. And he said, Young man, I say unto thee, Arise.
Luk 7:15 And he that was dead sat up, and began to speak. And he delivered him to his mother.

Do you think Jesus had to bring them to life first so that they could respond?

 

[preacher4truth]

I was once like Ann. Only about a year or so ago, a man taught these principles as dogma, and I had all the passages to refute all of it, so I thought. I was angry about the things he said. I continued to study this out, in Scripture, and doing so, I found out, guess what? I was WRONG, and Scripture was right, of course.

I had to take a look back on the theology we were taught in school, and what they skipped over. One major one that was skipped over was the Sovereignty of God. The other? Predestination (which is right in the Bible). The other? Election (right there in the Bible too). Now instead of being angry about it, I am glad to see this in Scripture.

One major problem I see with those who can't believe this is that they cannot fathom God being Sovereign, don't like it, and demand their personal rights. That is scary to me. They can't let go and let God.

Looking at others who fight against this truth, I see them as they are; proof-texters, and can't generally see context, and have a rather shallow undertanding of Scripture, and typically abuse those who read and study.

A thread yesterday showed this as clear to me as ever that one can be shown as plain as day a teaching and will still not see it.

You can show these all you want what Scriptures so plainly say, and they will twist it and deny using whatever methods needed. Then they typically use an experiential model to prove things, not Scriptures.

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

 

[webdog]

Do you think Jesus had to bring them to life first so that they could respond?

As the Creator and the one who holds the keys to life and death...no. Any other line of thought has Christ powerless over death and the grave in regards for the NEED to be made alive to respond to the one called The Life.

 

[Winman]

How does this help your position? YOU are the one claiming to believe without God's grace first.

This is false and you know it, you simply cannot understand my position. Man has the ability to believe, we believe every day. Calvinists know this, so they have to explain it away. They will say, Yes, man can believe anyone EXCEPT God. Problem is, you don't have scripture to support it. Now, see if you can grasp this, faith cannot exist in a vacuum, there must always be an object of faith, something to believe in. And this is what God provides, he provides his promises in his word. He does not magically zap us to believe, that is pure mysticism and came from Augustine. That is pure heresy. No, God gives us promises which provide an object of faith that enables us to believe. This is God's grace provided to all men out of his love and willingness to save all men. Now that we have God's promise we can choose to believe or not. Does the Bible say God zapped Abraham to believe? No, he gave Abraham a promise to be the father of many nations. And even though Abraham and Sarah were past age, Abraham believed God. And AFTER he believed, then God imputed righteousness to him.
We could not believe God unless he first provided a promise to us. This is his grace.

 

[preacher4truth]

physically? no physically dead people cannot do PHYSICAL things like spiritually dead people cannot do SPIRITUAL things. so can a physically dead person reject and refuse? no, he's physically dead. can a spiritually dead person reject and refuse? yes, he's spiritually dead, not physically dead

Save your breath, he stands on his own logic, not Scriptural evidence.

 

[Luke2427]

JBH, you, et al are comparing the physical to the spiritual, as that is what I replied to. GlFredrick asked if a dead person can believe. My question is the same...can a dead person refuse or break any law? It's quite relevant.

No. The answer is simple. A physically dead person cannot break any law.

A physically dead person cannot do anything physical and a spiritually dead person cannot do anything spiritual.

 

[webdog]

I was once like Ann. Only about a year or so ago, a man taught these principles as dogma, and I had all the passages to refute all of it, so I thought. I was angry about the things he said. I continued to study this out, in Scripture, and doing so, I found out, guess what? I was WRONG, and Scripture was right, of course.

I had to take a look back on the theology we were taught in school, and what they skipped over. One major one that was skipped over was the Sovereignty of God. The other? Predestination (which is right in the Bible). The other? Election (right there in the Bible too). Now instead of being angry about it, I am glad to see this in Scripture.

One major problem I see with those who can't believe this is that they cannot fathom God being Sovereign, don't like it, and demand their personal rights. That is scary to me. They can't let go and let God.

Looking at others who fight against this truth, I see them as they are; proof-texters, and can't generally see context, and have a rather shallow undertanding of Scripture, and typically abuse those who read and study.

A thread yesterday showed this as clear to me as ever that one can be shown as plain as day a teaching and will still not see it.

You can show these all you want what Scriptures so plainly say, and they will twist it and deny using whatever methods needed. Then they typically use an experiential model to prove things, not Scriptures.

"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."

The same broad brush you used to paint the reformed on the other threads you are using now to paint the non in this post.

Guess what! I did the exact same thing you did as someone holding to reformed theology! Guess what the conclusion that I came to when studying Scripture! I was wrong!

I'm actually quite surprised P4T you are resorting to the same ad hominem level here that you have been fighting against.

 

[preacher4truth]

The same broad brush you used to paint the reformed on the other threads you are using now to paint the non in this post.

Guess what! I did the exact same thing you did as someone holding to reformed theology! Guess what the conclusion that I came to when studying Scripture! I was wrong!

I'm actually quite surprised P4T you are resorting to the same ad hominem level here that you have been fighting against.

There was no ad hominem in what I said.

Yet there is much ad nauseam in yours.