Explicit Messianic Prophecy

Someone said, ' . . . they simply changed the timing of rapture to occur before, rather than after, the tribulation caused by the future one-man Anti-Christ.'

No one ever changed the timing of anything. Read it for yourself. II Thess. 2 speaks of the gathering of the saints who await the rapture. vs. 1. The Day of Christ {vs. 2} is the day of the rapture/the taking of the saints to Heaven. [I Thess. 4:17]

2:3 indicates there will be a neglect of the things of God, just before His coming. Also the antichrist will make his appearance in the world and will sit in the Temple {the future Great Tribulation Temple}. This antichrist does not deny Jesus Christ, but says that he is that One who we love and worship. He will deceive many in the future days of the Great Tribulation. [Matt. 24:21]

 

The earliest commentary on the Apocalypse is that of Victorinus, authored in 270 A.D. This is what he says with reference to the millenium in Ch. 20 of the Apocalypse:

Ray is saying, 'Victorinus did not have the mind of the Lord in what he said. Satan was not bound since the Cross until now; he is very much active in our world. Catholicism tries to tell her clientel that this is the 1,000 years--the time of the Kingdom of God, when in fact, the majority of the people in this world are well on their way to Hell. [Matt. 7:14]

Yes, we who are saved are in the Kingdom of God; His Kingdom and His Person lives in our hearts and lives. But a Messianic Kingdom is yet to come which is the 1,000 year reign of Christ on the earth. [Revelation 20]

 

Ray, other than the timing of the Rapture, how does your teaching differ from that of the Roman Catholics? You seem to agree with the Catholics that the Anti-Christ has not yet appeared. Hasn't the Anti-Christ been around for hundreds of years in the office of the papacy?

 

John Gilmore,

Where has the papacy ever denied that Christ has come in the flesh?

And if the papacy is the antiChrist, who is supposed to sit in the temple of God as if he was God...are you claiming now that the Vatican is the temple of God? Because this is where the Pope speaks from.

So many things that don't add up to the papacy being the antiChrist go ignored by Luther.

 

Carson Weber,

I wasn't trying to hurt your feelings.

I agree with your part of the post that says that Paul was giving them assurance about their dead loved ones and friends as to their ultimately bodily resurrection from the dead.

C.W. said, 'In fact, "the dead in Christ will rise first" to meet Christ,

Ray is saying, 'I agree with this first phrase above . . . '

C.W. has said, 'In fact, "the dead in Christ will rise first" to meet Christ, and those still alive at the second coming will immediatley follow them. But all will meet Christ at that time'

Ray is saying, 'But then you seem to be saying that all of the living sinners and saints will immediately after the dead saints arise from their graves, they together will rise to meet Christ in the clouds. {living sinners and saints together}

Ray continues to say, 'This twisting of Scripture is problematic because you have not dealt with the dead sinners at all. I know that you believe they will rise from the dead at this alleged Second Coming along with every other human being,' but the Word of God does not say this. In Revelation 20:5 'the rest of the dead . . . ' are all of the sinners who have died without Christ in their life. Their resurrection will be only for the purpose of being judged by Christ so they will be sent to Hell. Notice verse 11 of this same chatper 20.

People who believe in the rapture view in this passage I Thess. 4:17, agree that this is only dealing with church saints. The 'dead in Christ' plus the people living who have loved and served the Lord Jesus are the only ones who will rise at this event to meet Him.

 

Carson Weber,

You said, 'Revelation 20:1-3a describes the Church Age wherein Satan is restrained as
St. Paul says in 2 Thessalonians 2:6-7.

Ray is saying, 'The Holy Spirit is the restraining Person who does not yet let Satan run freely. But when He, the Spirit, is taken out of the way, the Great Tribulation will begin and Satan through the Antichrist will bring an unprecedented suffering to this old earth and those who are left after Christ has come for His covenant people.

C.W. says, 'Revelation 20:3b describes the tribulation, which the Church has yet to
undergo in the future before and when the Antichrist comes and just before
Christ's final advent.

Ray is saying, 'The church, most clearly, will escape the Great Tribulation. We, believe it or not, are the apple of His eye; we will be saved from this wicked, human personality called the AntiChrist. [I Thess. 4:17]

C.W. said, 'Revelation 20:4 describes the current reign of the saints in heaven. These
"souls" are the same souls described in Revelation 6:9-10. They are
currently in heaven, reigning with Christ the King.

Ray is saying, 'Revelation 20:4 is dealing with the beheaded saints that will die during this Great Tribulation. Revelation 7:13-17 & Revelation 20:4 & Revelation 13:15-18 are the same grouping of martyred saints.

C.W. said, 'Revelation 20:5a describes the General Resurrection.

Ray is saying, 'Absolutely not! If this were the general resurrection of every human being, then John would not have qualified the dead by saying, "the rest of the dead . . . '

C.W. said, 'Revelation 20:5b-6 describes the ascent of the soul into heaven as "the first
resurrection". The "second death" (which is the everlasting flames of hell)
has no power of those who have entered into heaven.

Ray is saying, 'The wicked dead have no part in the first resurrection; only the people of God are spoken of as those worthy of the first resurrection, with Christ being the first fruits [I Cor. 15:20] The wicked get only 'the second death.' [Rev. 20:14-15]

C.W. said, 'Revelation 20:7 returns to 20:3b and describes the tribulation yet to come, and the verses following describe the final coming of Jesus Christ and his judgement as well as his ultimate victory.

Ray is saying, 'Revelation 20:7 deals with what happens after the reign of Christ on the earth. Satan will be loosed but only for a brief period of time. Almighty God allows him to one more time to deceive the nations. In verse 9 the Devil will circle Jerusalem to destroy His city and He will rain fire down from Heaven and will devour the armies that will have attempted to drive the people into the Mediterranean Sea. In verse 10 the Lord Himself will cast the Devil into Hell. Then the judgment of all the wicked from all of time will stand before Jesus Christ and afterward expedited into Hell itself. vss. 11-15


C.W. said, 'This view of the Communion of Saints is foreign to those who have rejected any
sort of an integral view of the Church involving both heaven and earth at the
present time.

Ray is saying, 'Oh, we are very much involved in the Kingdom of God presently. We too, preach the Word and pray that men and women will receive Christ so they will not have to go to the home where demons reside. We, like you, try to worship Christ Who is the sovereign One in Heaven and in the earth.'

C.W. said, 'Thirdly, SDA advocates reject this interpretation because of their doctrine of "soul sleep"; their doctrine of soul annihilation also completely contradicts Revelation 20:10, which speaks of the tormenting that occurs day and night forever and ever.'

Ray is saying, 'We too agree that 'soul sleep' is error. Hell is eternal and it is hot!' At the time of death Christians will receive ' a building made by God.' [II Cor. 5:1-4; 5:8; Philippians 1:23]

Ray is saying, 'Hell is separation from the Lord and is also a place of fire. [Matt. 3:10; 5:22,29,30 & Revelation 20:14-15]

 

As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)
Brief Doctrinal Statement of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod, 1932

 

Ahh, yes, so Martin Luther exposed the anti-Christ? What else would I expect Lutherans to believe? This quote is wrong as far as I know because the Catholic Church recognizes baptism, and if you are baptized apart from them, you are separated brethern (please note, you are still a brother). So this statement quoted is wrong.

In Christ,
Neal

 

Ahh, yes, so Martin Luther exposed the anti-Christ? What else would I expect Lutherans to believe? This quote is wrong as far as I know because the Catholic Church recognizes baptism, and if you are baptized apart from them, you are separated brethern (please note, you are still a brother). So this statement quoted is wrong.

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]CANON IX: If anyone says that the ungodly is justified by faith alone in such a way that he understands that nothing else is required which cooperates toward obtaining the grace of justification . . . let him be anathema.

CANON XII: If anyone says that justifying faith is nothing else than trust in divine mercy, which remits sins for Christ's sake, or that it is this trust alone by which we are justified, let him be anathema.

CANON XIV: If anyone says that a man is absolved from sins and justified because . . . he confidently believes that he is absolved and justified . . . and that through this faith alone absolution and justification is effected, let him be anathema.

Council of Trent

 

John,

Yes, it says what I said it says, but it doesn't back it up. What temple is the Pope sitting in that is God's temple?

 

Forgive me, John, but I am not following you. I have no problems with what you posted from the Council of Trent. Do you? How does that prove that the Pope is the anti-Christ? What you posted seems quite acceptable to me. There is nothing in Scripture that says faith alone justifies. It is just not there.

In Christ,
Neal

 

Neil,


You said, 'There is nothing in Scripture that says faith alone justifies. It is just not there.

Ray is saying, read Romans 5:1 or in the Old Testament in Habakkuk 2:4b. Acts 2:21 & Acts 16:31.

Christ justifies sinners when they have faith in Jesus. [John 1:12]

Why do Cathlolics fight this truth?

 

Sorry Ray, but it is N-E-A-L.

Therefore, since we are justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Romans 5:1, RSV

But the righteous shall live by his faith. Habakkuk 2:4b, RSV

And it shall be that whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. Acts 2:21, RSV

And they said, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household." Acts 16:31, RSV

I still don't see faith alone. Habakkuk says that one will live by his faith. And you can't just take a few verses to support your position and ignore others. You have to see Scripture as a whole.

What does it profit, my brethren, if a man says he has faith but has not works? Can his faith save him? James 2:14, RSV

So faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. James 2:17, RSV

Do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? James 2:20, RSV

You see that faith was active along with his [Abraham's] works, and faith was completed by works. James 2:22, RSV

You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. James 2:24, RSV

For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead. James 2:26, RSV

That is just a sample from one chapter of one book of Scripture. Need I post more? Why did Jesus, Paul, Peter and others spend so much time with how we are to live if faith is all we need? Faith must have works with it. There are no if, ands, or buts about it. No works, no real faith.

But to all who received him, who believed in his name, he gave power to become children of God. John 1:12, RSV

Okay, but the verse you quoted does not say that (although I believe what you said). That is not the point I am getting at. I am beginning to question this whole "one point in time" justification idea. Yes, it begins at the point of faith in Christ. But it seems to be ongoing, because works are not at one point in time, but span time. And it is clear that true, justifying faith, must have good works in accordance to it and it must be worked out in our lives.

I don't know, you will have to ask one. I am a Baptist, not Catholic.

God Bless,
Neal

 

The Pope is a false teacher who seats himself in God's Temple, the church.

 

Forgive me, John, but I am not following you. I have no problems with what you posted from the Council of Trent. Do you? How does that prove that the Pope is the anti-Christ? What you posted seems quite acceptable to me. There is nothing in Scripture that says faith alone justifies. It is just not there.

In Christ,
Neal </font>[/QUOTE]Follow this link to the Council of Trent: http://history.hanover.edu/texts/trent.htm . If you find nothing wrong with canons of Trent, especially those concerning the Sacraments, you are actually a Roman Catholic not a Baptist.

Here's is a link to a more thorough explanation of the doctrine of the Antichrist: http://www.wels.net/sab/qa/rel-catholic-14.html

 

The Pope is a false teacher who seats himself in God's Temple, the church. </font>[/QUOTE]By stating this, you explicitly call the Catholic Church "God's true Church," because if it is not, then the pope is not sitting in God's Temple, but a false one.

 

The Pope is a false teacher who seats himself in God's Temple, the church. </font>[/QUOTE]By stating this, you explicitly call the Catholic Church "God's true Church," because if it is not, then the pope is not sitting in God's Temple, but a false one. </font>[/QUOTE]We teach that this Church, which is the invisible communion of all believers, is to be found not only in those external church communions which teach the Word of God purely in every part, but also where, along with error, so much of the Word of God still remains that men may be brought to the knowledge of their sins and to faith in the forgiveness of sins, which Christ has gained for all men, Mark 16:16; Samaritans: Luke 7:16; John 4:25.
Brief Doctrinal Statement of the LCMS, 1932

The church exists wherever there are Christians. Pope rules over a true Christian church in much the same way a wolf rules over sheep.

 

John,

"He will oppose and will exalt himself over everything that is called God or is worshiped..."

A man who does this cannot also claim the Lord as our Savior (which the papacy has done throughout the centuries), for that which is divided against itself cannot stand.

Luther and his followers took the part of the verse that fitted what they needed and neglected the rest.

He must also deny that Jesus is the Christ (1 John 2:22)
He must deny the Father and the Son (1 John 2:22)

This is "the antichrist" says John. However, you have taken a portion of one verse from Paul and neglected all the other requirements for the antichrist.