Exposed: False Illustrations to ‘Prove’ Doctrine – Part 3

[Winman]

EXCUSE ME?????? You are know saying that I have a different Jesus and a different gospel than you????? Are you saying I am not saved????????

I do not say who is saved and who is not, that is for God to judge.

But yes, you heard it right, I am saying Calvinism is not the gospel shown in the scriptures.

1 Cor 15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

Paul preached to folks that Jesus died for "our" sins. If you believe in Limited Atonement, then you cannot honestly tell anyone that Jesus died for "our" sins, because you cannot possibly know who is elect or not.

In fact, if you are completely honest, if you believe in Limited Atonement, then you cannot possibly know if YOU are elect. Sad, BUT TRUE.

Can you look every person you meet in the eye and tell them Jesus atoned for their sins? If not, then you are not preaching the same gospel as Paul preached. Listen carefully to some preachers and note how they say things like, "Jesus died for his people". You will not hear them ever tell people Jesus died for "YOU". It's a different gospel.

 

[Winman]

OT saints were saved based on the future promise of the Messiah but still through regeneration by the Spirit.

No, OT saints did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit. The disciples (except Judas) believed on Jesus, but they did not have the indwelling Spirit, else Jesus would not have needed to promise them he would send the indwelling Spirit.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

The Holy Spirit did not dwell with OT saints forever, the Spirit could leave a person as he did with king Saul.

1 Sam 16:14 But the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the LORD troubled him.

The OT saints did not have the permanent indwelling Holy Spirit. Jesus promised his disciples he would send the Comforter, who would abide with them forever. He pointed out that the Spirit only dwelled "with them" but in the future would be "IN YOU".

Why is this important? Because Romans 8:9 tells us that a person without the indwelling Spirit is a natural man, a person "in the flesh".

Rom 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

If you do not have the indwelling Spirit, then you are a natural man, a person in the flesh.

Yet, hundreds if not thousands of Jews (and some Gentiles) all believed on Jesus without the indwelling Spirit.

Jhn 7:38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

No one had the indwelling Spirit until after Jesus rose from the dead and was glorified, yet many believed on Jesus.

OT saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Jesus sprinkled his blood on the mercy seat in heaven and received the promise of the Spirit. Only then did he give the Spirit to believers. Many believe he gave the saints waiting in Abraham's bosom the Spirit and then led them to heaven.

Eph 4:8 Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men.
9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Saints did not go to heaven until after Jesus rose from the dead, the prophet Samuel being an example;

1 Sam 28:15 And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.

As you see, Samuel was not in heaven when he died, he was waiting in Abraham's bosom in the center of the earth as is shown in Luke 16.

Only after Jesus rose from the dead did he give the Spirit to these saints and lead them to heaven. Now all believers go directly to heaven when they die.

 

[steaver]

Steaver,

I never once suggested that the sinner does not choose. Of course he does! But the sinner cannot choose until he is first made able to by the Spirit.

That is no choice at all if God makes them choose.

Do not conflate the pouring out of the Spirit at Pentecost with the saving work of the Spirit. The Spirit's manifestation at Pentecost was to formerly commission the NT church and the authority of the Apostles. The Holy Spirit has always been operative in salvation, including during Abraham's time. OT saints were saved based on the future promise of the Messiah but still through regeneration by the Spirit.

I did not, John 7 is not referring to Pentecost, this is very clear.

As far as "ye would not", understand Jesus' larger message. His direct appeal was to Israel. When he uttered His great lament over Jerusalem ("Oh, Jerusalem, Jerusalem!) He was not making a doctrinal statement. He was lamenting the continued unbelief of God's covenant people. It was a lament over the nation.

And for what? Lamenting over a nation which had no ability to believe according to TULIP? Does this really make sense? It only makes sense if the nation had a choice.

Lastly, all people everywhere are called to repent (Acts 17:30 ). The fact that no one can do so without the regenerating work of the Spirit does not lessen the command. All men have sinned and transgressed God's law (Romans 3:23). All stand under the same sentence. Where you and I probably differ is that not all men are able to repent. But ability, or lack thereof, is no excuse. That is why salvation is of grace. God gifts it to whom He wills. I am thankful He has not revealed to us who are His elect, so that we will continue to preach the Gospel to all who have ears to hear

Just doesn't make sense to me, repent! But you can't!

 

[Herald]

steaver,

let us just agree to disagree. I have made it a point not to wade in too deeply anymore on Calvinist/Arminian threads. I will make a point here or there and then allow the Word, and the work of the Spirit, to reveal the truth.

Thank you for for sharing. Have a blessed day.

 

[steaver]

steaver,

let us just agree to disagree. I have made it a point not to wade in too deeply anymore on Calvinist/Arminian threads. I will make a point here or there and then allow the Word, and the work of the Spirit, to reveal the truth.

Thank you for for sharing. Have a blessed day.

Thank you! God speed! :thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

This is one of the strangest doctrines of TULIP which Herald points out......

Lastly, all people everywhere are called to repent (Acts 17:30 ). The fact that no one can do so without the regenerating work of the Spirit does not lessen the command.

I would say that it does not lesson the command but rather destroys the command. I don't know how one could conclude anything but. If a person is told to do something or else, the only way the or else would be Just to put forth is if the person could actually do it but refuses to do it. If the person is incapable of doing it then it is not Just to enforce the or else. Human government recognizes this simple truth in justice, do we think a perfect God would be less Just than humans???

 

[InTheLight]

Another strange doctrine is the idea that once God has determined you will be one of the elect you then freely choose to repent and believe.

 

[Revmitchell]

Another strange doctrine is the idea that once God has determined you will be one of the elect you then freely choose to repent and believe.

The word strange does not do it justice. It is a complete contradiction that cannot be flushed out by any dichotomy possible in all the universe.

 

[Herald]

This is one of the strangest doctrines of TULIP which Herald points out......



I would say that it does not lesson the command but rather destroys the command. I don't know how one could conclude anything but. If a person is told to do something or else, the only way the or else would be Just to put forth is if the person could actually do it but refuses to do it. If the person is incapable of doing it then it is not Just to enforce the or else. Human government recognizes this simple truth in justice, do we think a perfect God would be less Just than humans???

steaver,

I had ducked out of the conversation but feel the need to at clarify my position so as not be misunderstood.

The person who is under the internal illumination of the Spirit (regenerated) is able to respond freely because their will has been liberated. I understand this may not seem plausible to you, but it is not a strange doctrine. The question to ask is whether the sinner is actually spiritually dead (c.f. my previous post on 1 Corinthians 2:14 and Ephesians 2:1)? If he is then the work of regeneration must be of the Spirit, without any human involvement. Of course, if you believe the sinner is not actually spiritually dead then you are free of this conclusion. IMHO wrongly so.

Once the Spirit regenerates then the individual's will is made free. Prior to that it was held in bondage to sin.

I can handle dissenting opinions. I just want to make sure that I sufficiently explained my position.

Thank you. NOW I promise to leave you to your thread.

Have a blessed Lord's Day tomorrow.

 

[Yeshua1]

Another strange doctrine is the idea that once God has determined you will be one of the elect you then freely choose to repent and believe.

Gods choosing of a sinner , His election of that individual, means that God will grant unto them all that is needed/sufficient for them to hear the good news, and believe in the Lord jesus and get saved!

god chooses us first, and supplies what we lack to enable us to choose Jesus

other view seems that due to us freely choosing Jesus, that allows God to then call us one of His elect!