Exposed: False Illustrations to ‘Prove’ Doctrine – Part 7

[Yeshua1]

Ah, there is the ole Calvinistic attitude coming out........they deserve what they get because THEY love their darkness! But I on the other hand got the lucky draw! Praise Jesus! Can't wait for that wrath of God to come down on those unworthy unbelievers!

I am JUST as unworthy to be saved by the Lord as any of them still are!

God chose to have His mercy upon me, and I can just be thankfukl and grateful and try to live for Him as I should out of graditutude!


We sau that ANy sinner that gets saved is due to the will of God being the determing factor, what is the determing factor for non cals though?

 

[Winman]

I am JUST as unworthy to be saved by the Lord as any of them still are!

God chose to have His mercy upon me, and I can just be thankfukl and grateful and try to live for Him as I should out of graditutude!


We sau that ANy sinner that gets saved is due to the will of God being the determing factor, what is the determing factor for non cals though?

And there you have it folks, the difference between Calvinism and non-Calvinism.

Calvinism believes that God chose persons OUTSIDE Jesus before the foundation of the world and then GAVE them to Jesus.

The scriptures teach a very different story, the scriptures say we are chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is a subtle, but very important difference in doctrine. Non-Cals believe we are elect only because we are IN CHRIST. Jesus is the Elect One, we are only elect because we are IN HIM. We are baptized into his body and so enjoy and share in his blessings. It is not because there is anything special in us, it is because Jesus is special, we simply are blessed because we are part of his body.

Calvinists believe VERY DIFFERENTLY here. Calvinists believe they were chosen OUTSIDE of Jesus by the Father in eternity past, and then given to Jesus.

I'm a Christian today because before the foundation of the world from all eternity past, God chose to set His love on John MacArthur and to give Him the faith to believe at the moment that God wanted him to believe. He chose us...

We are chosen to belong to Him...

When you look at your salvation, thank God. Thank God because you're a Christian because He chose you. I don't understand the mystery of that, that's just what the Word of God teaches. That is the most humbling doctrine in all of Scripture. I take no credit, not even credit for my faith. It all came from HIm. He chose me. He selected people to be made holy in order to be with Him forever. Why He selected me I will never know. I'm no better than anyone else, I'm worse than many. But He chose me.

http://www.gty.org/resources/print/sermons/80-46

Calvinists often claim the non-Cal theology is "man-centered", but this is as man centered as you can get. John MacArthur does not believe he is elect because he is IN CHRIST, he believes God chose him, John MacArthur TO BELONG to him. Now, that is as self centered as you can get.

No, the scriptures say we were "made accepted in the beloved". Jesus is "the beloved" one.

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God did not pick or choose US for some unknown reason and then decide to give US to Jesus as John MacArthur falsely teaches. God chose Jesus Christ, Jesus is the one and only ELECT ONE. We are only elect because when we believe on Jesus we are baptized into his body and share in his blessings. We become the elect only IN HIM.

This is why Reformed theology is so wrong. This is a very, very serious error.

 

[steaver]

I am JUST as unworthy to be saved by the Lord as any of them still are!

I know that's what Calvinist say, as do non-cals. That wasn't the point, what is sad is when Calvinist look down their noses at the non elect and rail against them for their love of darkness. John MacArthur does the same thing.

We sau that ANy sinner that gets saved is due to the will of God being the determing factor, what is the determing factor for non cals though

It was God's will to provided the means. The determining factor is calling upon the Lord Jesus Christ, and then, as promised, saving faith/regeneration/eternal life is granted.

 

[Yeshua1]

And there you have it folks, the difference between Calvinism and non-Calvinism.

Calvinism believes that God chose persons OUTSIDE Jesus before the foundation of the world and then GAVE them to Jesus.

The scriptures teach a very different story, the scriptures say we are chosen IN HIM before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

This is a subtle, but very important difference in doctrine. Non-Cals believe we are elect only because we are IN CHRIST. Jesus is the Elect One, we are only elect because we are IN HIM. We are baptized into his body and so enjoy and share in his blessings. It is not because there is anything special in us, it is because Jesus is special, we simply are blessed because we are part of his body.

Calvinists believe VERY DIFFERENTLY here. Calvinists believe they were chosen OUTSIDE of Jesus by the Father in eternity past, and then given to Jesus.



http://www.gty.org/resources/print/sermons/80-46

Calvinists often claim the non-Cal theology is "man-centered", but this is as man centered as you can get. John MacArthur does not believe he is elect because he is IN CHRIST, he believes God chose him, John MacArthur TO BELONG to him. Now, that is as self centered as you can get.

No, the scriptures say we were "made accepted in the beloved". Jesus is "the beloved" one.

Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.

God did not pick or choose US for some unknown reason and then decide to give US to Jesus as John MacArthur falsely teaches. God chose Jesus Christ, Jesus is the one and only ELECT ONE. We are only elect because when we believe on Jesus we are baptized into his body and share in his blessings. We become the elect only IN HIM.

This is why Reformed theology is so wrong. This is a very, very serious error.

bible view
God Elects/chooses us to be saved by/in Christ from eternity past- God grants those sinners BOTH the Spriit and the Gosple- They are enabled/quickened to respond by receiving Jesus, and thsu confirm their election and salvation!

Error view

God chose to elect out His plan to save any and all who decide by their own free will to come to Christ to get saved, their choice secures God then to be able to elect them in to His plan!

 

[Winman]

bible view
God Elects/chooses us to be saved by/in Christ from eternity past- God grants those sinners BOTH the Spriit and the Gosple- They are enabled/quickened to respond by receiving Jesus, and thsu confirm their election and salvation!

Error view

God chose to elect out His plan to save any and all who decide by their own free will to come to Christ to get saved, their choice secures God then to be able to elect them in to His plan!

God did not choose you, God chose his Son Jesus. You are only elect if you have believed on Jesus and have been baptized into his body.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

God didn't pick you, Yeshua1 and then decide to give you to Jesus. God in his foreknowledge chose those whom he saw would believe on Jesus in time. He saw those persons IN HIM and chose them because they were IN HIM.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

You better study this chapter a little closer and pay special attention to the word "in", especially when it says "in him" or "in the beloved", or "in Christ", or "in whom".

God didn't pick you, he picked Jesus. If you happen to be "in him" then you get picked too. Jesus is the one that is special, you are just going along for the free ride if you happen to be in him.

 

[Yeshua1]

God did not choose you, God chose his Son Jesus. You are only elect if you have believed on Jesus and have been baptized into his body.

Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.

God didn't pick you, Yeshua1 and then decide to give you to Jesus. God in his foreknowledge chose those whom he saw would believe on Jesus in time. He saw those persons IN HIM and chose them because they were IN HIM.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Eph 1:6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

You better study this chapter a little closer and pay special attention to the word "in", especially when it says "in him" or "in the beloved", or "in Christ", or "in whom".

God didn't pick you, he picked Jesus. If you happen to be "in him" then you get picked too. Jesus is the one that is special, you are just going along for the free ride if you happen to be in him.

Starnge that Jesus was the Chosen One only, when He stated to His Apsotles that he chose them first, and that the father chose whom to draw unto Him, so how can God be the One choosing who to draw If He is waiting on who will choose jesus first?

 

[Winman]

Starnge that Jesus was the Chosen One only, when He stated to His Apsotles that he chose them first, and that the father chose whom to draw unto Him, so how can God be the One choosing who to draw If He is waiting on who will choose jesus first?

You misunderstand. I do not deny election, but I am saying you are chosen IN CHRIST. We are elect according to the foreknowledge of the Father. Before the foundation of the world, the Father foresaw who believed on Jesus in time and was baptized into his body and chose them "in him". You were chosen IN HIM.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Calvinism teaches a very, very serious error, it teaches that God chose you OUTSIDE Christ in eternity past. I showed you a quote from John MacArthur himself.

I'm a Christian today because before the foundation of the world from all eternity past, God chose to set His love on John MacArthur and to give Him the faith to believe at the moment that God wanted him to believe.

We are chosen to belong to Him.

http://www.gty.org/resources/print/sermons/80-46

This is very serious and total error here. God did not choose John MacArthur "to belong" to Jesus. If God chose John MacArthur, it was because he "already belonged" to Jesus through faith, because he was baptized into his body, because he was "in him". We are chosen "in him".

If you cannot understand this difference, you should read it over and over again until you do. This is a very important distinction in doctrine between Reformed and non-Reformed theology.

No, we were chosen "in him" through God's foreknowledge.

 

[Rippon]

Winman's Scripture inversion: God did not choose any of us.

Scripture read plainly; Chosen by God = elect of God

And we were elect before the foundation of the world --we do not become elect.

Keep it pithy Winman.

 

[Winman]

Winman's Scripture inversion: God did not choose any of us.

Scripture read plainly; Chosen by God = elect of God

And we were elect before the foundation of the world --we do not become elect.

Keep it pithy Winman.

False, we were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If you leave out the "in him" part, you get it all wrong.

We were not chosen "to belong" to him as some falsely teach.

 

[Yeshua1]

False, we were chosen "in him" before the foundation of the world.

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

If you leave out the "in him" part, you get it all wrong.

We were not chosen "to belong" to him as some falsely teach.

IF what you saying is true, them how can God have any sinner saved by death of jesus, as all of us have natures at war against Him, cannot understand the things of the Spirit?

 

[Winman]

IF what you saying is true, them how can God have any sinner saved by death of jesus, as all of us have natures at war against Him, cannot understand the things of the Spirit?

I am not exactly sure what you are asking here, but 1 Cor 2:14 does not teach inability.

1 Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The problem with Calvinism is that it ASSUMES total inability, when that is not necessarily what the scriptures are teaching. That is a POSSIBLE explanation, but other explanations are also possible. And when you compare scripture against scripture, it is shown that total inability is a false doctrine.

Yes, this scripture says the "natural man" cannot receive the things of the Spirit. But that does not necessarily mean that a man cannot take heed to and understand basic and simple spiritual matters. The gospel is so simple that a small child can understand it.

That a natural man can turn at God's reproof and understand the gospel is clearly shown throughout scripture.

Pro 1:23 Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you

This verse shows that man can turn at God's rebuke or reproof, and that if a man does turn to God, then God will pour out his spirit to that man, and make him to understand his words. But man can understand the basics.

Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

This scripture shows that natural man can understand enough of God's word to be deeply convicted, and brought to the point of repentance.

Note that Paul tells them to repent and believe (because only believers are allowed to be baptized) and they will afterward receive the Holy Spirit.

This easily refutes the Calvinist interpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:14. Natural men can understand the basics, he can be enlightened and convicted and brought to repentance, and if he believes he will be given the Spirit.

There are many other scriptures that show this same order;

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Holy Spirit by first believing the gospel. So again, this refutes the Calvinist interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14. Men can understand the gospel, and they can believe the gospel, and if they do they afterward receive the Spirit.

So, you can't pull one verse out of context and build a doctrine on it, you have to compare scripture against scripture, and scripture cannot contradict itself.

 

[steaver]

Note that Paul tells them to repent and believe (because only believers are allowed to be baptized) and they will afterward receive the Holy Spirit.

This easily refutes the Calvinist interpretation of 1 Corinthians 2:14. Natural men can understand the basics, he can be enlightened and convicted and brought to repentance, and if he believes he will be given the Spirit.

There are many other scriptures that show this same order;

Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul's question demands the answer that these Galatians received the Holy Spirit by first believing the gospel. So again, this refutes the Calvinist interpretation of 1 Cor 2:14. Men can understand the gospel, and they can believe the gospel, and if they do they afterward receive the Spirit.

So, you can't pull one verse out of context and build a doctrine on it, you have to compare scripture against scripture, and scripture cannot contradict itself.

There are so many scriptures which declare one believes and then receives the Holy Spirit. Why are these dismissed by the Calvinist?

 

[Winman]

There are so many scriptures which declare one believes and then receives the Holy Spirit. Why are these dismissed by the Calvinist?

Because it would destroy their false doctrine of Total Inability. They would rather hold to this false doctrine than believe what the scriptures say.

It's hard to give up a belief when you've invested so much in it.

They can read, they know many scriptures say a person believes first, and receives the Spirit afterward.

You can't do much for folks like this, but a few will listen.

 

[Yeshua1]

There are so many scriptures which declare one believes and then receives the Holy Spirit. Why are these dismissed by the Calvinist?

We don't deny that its thru faith one receives jesus and the Spriit, but we do deny that its something that we can do apart from the prior working unto us by the Spirit!