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Extremely Derogatory to Human Pride

Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by KenH, Nov 29, 2002.

  1. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    This title may ring a bell:
    Non-Calvinists, why is your God so small?

    In the meantime, I assume from the tone of your different responses, you don't feel like I have any points either. OK, so be it.
     
  2. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Well, Helen, won't you admit that a lot of the discussion in this forum is not exactly on a collegiate level? It's rather more on the playground level of talking smack as is the manner on sports boards sans the cuss words. And I am talking to myself as well as others.

    Ken

    [ November 29, 2002, 10:52 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  3. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, I misunderstood your meaning. I thought you were talking about a pro-non-Calvinist thread heading.

    Ken
     
  4. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I have not posted here what I consider nonsense. My points were real, at least to me, and my questions also real, which you simply made fun of.
     
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Maybe if you non-Calvinists treated the beliefs of we Calvinists with respect instead of slurs and mischaracterizations, we could have a decent discussion that might be educational for all of us.

    There are times when I actually believe you non-Calvinists actually believe that we Calvinists have no love for anybody and really desire to see people go to hell. Do you not think we have family and friends and co-workers that we care about?

    Whenever you and/or other non-Calvinists are ready to engage in such an educational discussion, please let me know. I am more than ready to see this forum become such a place of learning for both sides. [​IMG]

    Ken

    [ November 29, 2002, 11:47 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  6. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Helen,

    Prime example A of what I am talking about is in the "Newbie Questions" thread in a post by Bob Ryan dated November 30, 2002 at 12:11 AM.

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  7. Helen

    Helen <img src =/Helen2.gif>

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    I'm not Bob, and it seems to me that all you are doing is spending time avoiding and real discussion here.
     
  8. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Fine. Start a serious thread, Helen. Attempts at Scripture exegesis only allowed. No use of perjoratives. Not even the use of the words Calvinism, non-Calvinism, etc. No references to the TULIP acronym allowed. No references to any commentators or preachers, past or present. The Bible only.

    The ball is in your court. [​IMG]

    Ken

    [ November 30, 2002, 12:52 AM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]
     
  9. Jacob

    Jacob Member

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    Thanks for the questions, Jacob.

    1. Yes.

    2. Yes.

    3. I believe that Calvinism accurately describes the gospel message. Therefore, I see no difference between evangelizing the simple gospel message and Calvinism.

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken
    </font>[/QUOTE]Ken, I appreciate your answers to 1 & 2; however, I have a followup question. Your answer to 3 implied that your believe Calvinism = The Gospel.
    If this is true, how can you answer "Yes" to question 1? Afterall, according to your logic Arminians would be distorting the Gospel and that is not a secondary issue.

    Personally, I believe one could (and should) accurately present the Gospel without getting into inability, predesination, dying for some only, etc.

    Jacob.
     
  10. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Jacob,

    Good question. The gospel that all Christians, regardless of theological leanings, teach is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ(the indicative) with the command to come to Him in repentance and faith(the imperative).

    What we argue about in this forum is how God brings man to repentance and faith. Is it totally by God's sovereign power, or is it partly by God's sovereign power and partly man performing an action that all men are capable of doing? And the way we answer this question is based on what we believe the result of Adam's sin was on man.

    Now, I also believe there are ramifications for how the gospel is presented based on what one believes about the above. It is possible for non-Calvinists to overemphasize man's "ability" so that God is relegated to an almost minor role in salvation currently, just as it is possible for Calvinists(actually hyper-Calvinists) to overemphasize God's sovereignty so that man's responsibility to obey God's command to repent and believe is relegated to an almost minor role in salvation.

    Personally, I believe that Calvinism best explains how God brings man to salvation, which helps me to understand why the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ is effective in saving sinners.

    I hope this helps. [​IMG]

    Ken
     
  11. Jacob

    Jacob Member

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    Thanks for the background information Ken even though I was already aware of all that.

    Do you really believe Calvinism = The Simple Gospel? Doesn't seem to me that you really do.

    The Calvinists I have aquaintances with believe Calvinism = the Gospel and evangelize TULIP to Non-Christians and Christians alike. (at least they're consistent)

    Jacob.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    #1. There are no slurs in the scenario I posted.

    #2. The point about the "luxury" of ignoring the case of the lost is apparent in EVERY calvinist post that addresses the lost as an "unknown" group that God simply does not love - INSTEAD of KNOWN loved ones.

    #3. This is so patently obvious that the attempts to pretend that it "Can't be seen if we say it is inane" - just doesn't work.

    I am asking that the Calvinist response be cogent and substantive and that "1001 ways to dodge the bullet" should be dropped for the sake of this pointed argument that is so devastating for the Calvinist case.

    My hope is that there is some desire to defend Calvinism on this issue and "SHOW" (not simply complain) how it can be worked out in the favor of Calvinism by really Addressing the points raised. Come to the table - bring something that will stand up to review.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 30, 2002, 06:34 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hellen - you are being calm and objective - but still that casts Calvinism in a negative light -

    totally unnacceptable!

    INdeed Helen. When will you learn to express an opposing view to Calvinism in a way that always makes Calvinism "look good"?

    Figure it out - and then maybe we can talk.

    Ok - maybe "we" can talk anyway.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  14. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    There is nothing any Calvinist can say that will stand up to your review.

    Ken
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    To the contrary.

    The response has already been posted for this - but the calvinist practives of 'not responding' when a devastating case is made - results in the stalled response above.

    So here it is again. Let us try to carry it another step forward -

    ===========================================

    So why "keep assuming" that the problem is the same for Arminians in the case of lost loved ones?

    Why not read the answer above and then SHOW what you see as a problem instead of consistently dropping the point when it is time for the Calvinist response??

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    You are closing your eyes when you see a non-Calvinist challenge instead of taking the time to respond.

    The above statement is a classic example. The "salient point" behind the scenario is that Calvinists ARE like all of us and DO care about their loved ones. The POINT was to show that the typical calvinist response dealing with the lost - and YES - AS POSTED on these boards, is to NEVER state the response in terms of a known loved one. It is ALWAYS to exault the grace of God in saving those who are saved and to pretend that NOT saving the lost is 'just fine with me' when we KNOW that it is not fine with Calvinists to view their own loved ones lost.

    It is the calvinist "habbit" of trying to "ignore that point" (the fact that they never proclaim the grace if God in view of a dear loved one lost) that is the fuel driving that scenario - and it is what stops Calvinists from actually addressing the point raised.

    As I said - this is patently obvious to any reader of the dialogue.

    In Christ,

    Bob
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I do not view "Arminian" or "Arminianism" to be pejorative or derogatory in the least.

    I am shocked that anyone would come to these boards on the stated topic of Amrinianism vs Calvinism with the starting assumption that either of those terms is bad.

    I do not find it "harmful" to meantion 5-point-calvinism or the TULIP acronym.

    However - I am "guilty" of using all of those terms - as is everyone else on this board.

    If these are viewed by you as "slurs" maybe another topic is better suited for your study.

    My point in meantioning 5-point-Calvinism in some of my posts to very explicitly to show a body of beliefs that do agree with what I am claiming or that I am opposing on some point. I readily admit that some (like you) are not actually 5-point-Calvinists and so I am asking that you take that into consideration when viewing my post that IS a statement about a full 5-point-position and not necessarily about all points in between.

    In Christ,

    Bob

    [ November 30, 2002, 07:06 PM: Message edited by: BobRyan ]
     
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