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Eye of the Needle
- Thread starter Salty
- Start date
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
No I can't!
http://thepaperthinhymn.com/2009/11/02/the-myth-of-the-eye-of-the-needle/
From the linked article:
"Most people are familiar with this story, as it’s often preached in relation to issues of money and wealth. What I wanted to focus on though is one detail that I hear time and time again that I desire to dissuade people of. When pastors preach this story, many of them invariably mention the illustration of a camel going through the eye of the needle. In order to make sense of this, pastors and teachers tell a story of a gate in the Jerusalem wall called the “eye of the needle” gate, and that travelers would come to the gate and would have to remove all the supplies from their camel. That in order for the camel to pass through, because the gate was so small and low, the camel would have to bend down and shuffle through unencumbered and crawling on its knees. This is some great sermon material, with the parallel often being drawn that like the camel, we must of come to God on our knees without all our baggage and so forth.
There’s only one problem. No such gate exists. There has never been any evidence for such a gate called the “eye of the needle” existing, much less a gate of this nature at all in the Jerusalem wall. The entire thing is a complete fabrication which sounds good, and which has been passed down so many times that it has found itself to be a truism, but the whole story and illustration is a misguided riff on a mythic architectural structure. It doesn’t exist."
From the linked article:
"Most people are familiar with this story, as it’s often preached in relation to issues of money and wealth. What I wanted to focus on though is one detail that I hear time and time again that I desire to dissuade people of. When pastors preach this story, many of them invariably mention the illustration of a camel going through the eye of the needle. In order to make sense of this, pastors and teachers tell a story of a gate in the Jerusalem wall called the “eye of the needle” gate, and that travelers would come to the gate and would have to remove all the supplies from their camel. That in order for the camel to pass through, because the gate was so small and low, the camel would have to bend down and shuffle through unencumbered and crawling on its knees. This is some great sermon material, with the parallel often being drawn that like the camel, we must of come to God on our knees without all our baggage and so forth.
There’s only one problem. No such gate exists. There has never been any evidence for such a gate called the “eye of the needle” existing, much less a gate of this nature at all in the Jerusalem wall. The entire thing is a complete fabrication which sounds good, and which has been passed down so many times that it has found itself to be a truism, but the whole story and illustration is a misguided riff on a mythic architectural structure. It doesn’t exist."
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
That would carry a lot more weight if all the ancient walls had been unearthed, but they aren't even close. The fact that every major city from the time of Jerusalem's "hey days" had a needle gate (it wasn't a formal name, it was a common name, and therefore wouldn't be in the Bible) is reason enough to believe Jerusalem had one. There are numerous pictures (I posted two of them) indicative of the use of these small gates by merchants who arrived into the nighttime hours, and had to unpack their animals and bring them to their knees to crawl through the "needle gate" of a city. This effort was tedious (and likely good impetus for the merchant to get to a city before sundown) but necessary to insure that bandits or an enemy army wasn't using the merchant as cover, so as to invade through the open city gate.
Yes, Dr. Utley is wrong. Just like the host of arguments against this fact are wrong, as seen proliferating on the Internet these days.
http://www.bibletools.org/index.cfm/fuseaction/Topical.show/RTD/cgg/ID/3918/Eye-of-Needle-.htm
From New Commentary on the Whole Bible
Based on the classic commentary of
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown
General Editor:
J. D. Douglas
New Testament Editor:
Philip W. Comfort
easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye—a proverbial expression used to describe that which is nearly impossible to accomplish. Some interpreters think that Jesus was speaking of the needle-like gate in the city wall through which the loaded camel must stoop to enter after the main gate had been closed for the night. Others think that there has been a scribal error in transmitting the term “rope,” very similar to the term “camel,” in the Greek text. It seems best to take the statement as it stands, with the realization that Jesus purposely used this hyperbole. A Jewish proverb uses the figure of an elephant in a similar teaching.
From New Commentary on the Whole Bible
Based on the classic commentary of
Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown
General Editor:
J. D. Douglas
New Testament Editor:
Philip W. Comfort
easier for a camel to go through a needle’s eye—a proverbial expression used to describe that which is nearly impossible to accomplish. Some interpreters think that Jesus was speaking of the needle-like gate in the city wall through which the loaded camel must stoop to enter after the main gate had been closed for the night. Others think that there has been a scribal error in transmitting the term “rope,” very similar to the term “camel,” in the Greek text. It seems best to take the statement as it stands, with the realization that Jesus purposely used this hyperbole. A Jewish proverb uses the figure of an elephant in a similar teaching.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
It's actually a Persian proverb. The author/editor of a Bible commentary should have know that.
Easily be both, as variations of this illustration are also found in the Quran. I'll have to find the reference, but if not mistaken, the whole needle gate theory didn't show up until the 14th or 15th century. Don't beat the farm on those dates but the point is that it wasn't understood to be an actual gate for some 1500 years.
thisnumbersdisconnected
New Member
It could, but it's not.
Essentially all that the expression of an individual having "to pass through the 'eye of the needle'" is telling us is that the way to eternal life is only by receiving Jesus Christ as one's personal Savior.
IOW, it's just another way of re-affirming the fact that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to receive eternal life -- a truth that is clearly stated in such Bible passages as John 14:6 -- "I [Jesus Christ] am the way, the truth and the life. No man [or woman] cometh to the Father but by Me [Jesus Christ]."
IOW, it's just another way of re-affirming the fact that Jesus Christ is the ONLY way to receive eternal life -- a truth that is clearly stated in such Bible passages as John 14:6 -- "I [Jesus Christ] am the way, the truth and the life. No man [or woman] cometh to the Father but by Me [Jesus Christ]."
The camel was the largest animal seen regularly in Israel, whereas in regions where the Babylonian Talmud was written, the elephant was the biggest animal. Thus the aphorism is culturally translated from a camel to an elephant in regions outside of Israel.
http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm
Babylonian (Persia) Talmud (Jewish)
http://www.biblicalhebrew.com/nt/camelneedle.htm
Babylonian (Persia) Talmud (Jewish)
glazer1972
Member
It is referring to the gate.
I'll rephrase, you WON'T make the connection.
There's nothing deficient with your IQ.
Last edited by a moderator:
beameup
Member
Lk 21:25-27, 31
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The passage from Revelation refers to the apostate church in my opinion. I will not lay all that at the feet of Israel or the Jews although Jesus Christ did tell us:
Matthew 23:37. O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
Flattery will get you everywhere!