Featured Eye Opening Music Education

Since I already believed it was acceptable, more or less. I was pointing something that does seem to support what I've been saying, but I will grant that it's not infallible proof.

And once again, that the Psalm mentioned dancing in accordance with the timbrel (presumably it's beat), suggests that rhythms were used which would not fit the definition of classical you're using.

 

You missed my point entirely, then.

If rock was made solely for that purpose, then that's all it would be able to express. I provided proof positive that this isn't the case. I could easily give many more examples than I did.

Going back to the car example: Cars are amoral because they are demonstrably useful for both good and bad.
So I suppose my argument regarding specific styles of music is this: rock is amoral because it is demonstrably useful for both good and bad.


Secondly:
You can express anger and rebellion on virtually any instrument. I can express anger on the piano. I've done it. It's a good way to vent.
My piano teacher sometimes instructs me specifically to play "angry music" for various reasons--to build up strength in my fingers, to gain better control over dynamics (playing loudly vs playing softly), and to practice using the music to emulate emotion.
It's done by playing the notes in a specific way, and playing the notes angrily usually involves hitting the keys harder than normal. (Could also involve playing the notes in a staccato fashion, as opposed to playing them where they connect and harmonize.) Also using notes down near the bass seems to help in my experience, since they are deeper and just sound angrier to me.
Now, let's say I am angry at my parents for some petty reason. (Just for the sake of argument. I'm not a teenager anymore and I've since learned better.) Let's say it's time to do piano practice. Let's say I channel my anger and attitude of rebellion towards my parents into my piano practice.
Such a thing is possible. The piano is an instrument that makes music. It does whatever I tell it to do. Whatever music I produce on it is not automatically moral simply because it's a traditional instrument--or even because I am using steady "1, 2, 3, 4" timing. If I wanted I could write a song or composition on it about how stupid my parents are and how they should just let me do what I want.
(Hehe, actually as a little kid I remember playing a "song" on a toy piano that I'd usually play right after being spanked and I'd spend a little while stewing in anger. I simply played all of the keys in order and the lyrics went "I hate you". Of course, I never said them out loud.)


Classical music often expresses anger. Many of the composers were not people whose lives we'd commend. For example, it is said that Beethoven died shaking his fist at God.
He channelled a lot of emotions through his compositions--including anger. Possibly rebellion, too.
One piece of classical music is titled "Wine, Women, and Song"--is that not carnal? Is it bad that I like that piece for it's melody?

Basically, people are most likely going to use whatever music is popular to express their immorality.


How familiar are you with music theory and instruments? Some of what I'm trying to explain may be harder to explain if you aren't familiar with either.

 

I can see where you are coming from. Honestly, I think overall the article attempts to be more fair than most and that is why I recommended it. Still, there were places where I was like, "Dude, the way you worded that, only people who agreed with you wouldn't be turned off by that...."

I do not see where the author tells lie after lie as your friend said, though. Your friend's response seemed unfair, actually, and more based on accusations than countering the arguments the author had to offer.


I understand why it's off-puting--I do. In many areas I have done research on I've been frustrated by the attitudes and finger-pointing present in both sides--it's like "man, I just want the facts. Leave the accusatory stuff and attitude out of it."
Still, I usually try to look past any present attitude and honestly examine any legitimate arguments being presented.


I watched through the videos you suggested (except the history one, still have to view that) without skimming and listening to what was being said, despite feeling compelled to go slam my head against a wall at parts.

 

Can you name another possibility for it, then?

 

The hard thing for me Jordan is that I am in basic agreement with the style of music that you would be happy with. These stretched arguments, IMNSHO, do more harm than good for those of us who prefer or hold to more conservative and traditional styles. Some of his statements are so far fetched that it begs mockery and criticism.

I personally find a lot of the loud, pulsing church music disruptive to my spirit - but to say that it is all based on sensuality and rebellion simply has no basis in truth. However, there is much modern music outside of the circles who are accustomed to that is truly God honouring and pleasant to the more conservative ear.

On occasion I preach in a place where I don't go in during the 'worship' time because the music unsettles my spirit - but I am not moved sensually or incited to rebel. This preacher's little shoulder dip to illustrate how bodies are sexu@lly moved by the anticipated beat was, well, interesting.

 

Fair enough. I'm not interested in intimidating you into agreement, I'm sorry if anything I said came across that way.
This subject isn't entirely separated from my emotions as I'd prefer it to be--for a time I had a hard time with my family because they didn't like some opinions I was forming. Though I tried to respect that they were in no way obligated to agree with me and I didn't listen to my music in front of them for the most part, there were still some hurtful things said on both sides. It wasn't all (or even mostly) about music, though. It was much more complex than that.
So I can be a bit defensive about this.

All I can say is do whatever God leads you to do.
For my part I don't feel that listening to contemporary music hurts my relationship with God and I don't feel that my music choices are going to hurt anyone else so long as I act in love and don't shove it in their face.

I'm not going to assume that this will be the case for everyone. Scripture states that if one feels something to be immoral, for him it is. And if he were to act against what he believes to be moral, he is sinning.

 

Actually, it can be proven.

You see, I've had the opportunity to spend some time in the Middle East. Not just a week, or a month, where you might see the highlights of what tourists generally see; I've eaten in cafeterias that wouldn't last five minutes under an American health inspection. And I've watched Middle Eastern television shows that prominently displayed religious-themed (albeit islamic) music; and I can assure you, drums (ranging from what we would consider bass drums and kettle drums, down to timbrels--yes, they still use timbrels) play a large part.

Countries like Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq where people in some areas still live like they did 2,000 years ago; well, those are the best teachers on what music in the Old Testament was like. And having been there, I'm sorry but your videos have very little credence since those people haven't.

Did you research the timbrel like I suggested? I know you didn't think it had any relation to what's being discussed here, but consider: if God condoned drums in the Old Testament, and didn't say anything about it in the New Testament, then perhaps we should be looking at musician's motives and spiritual fruit instead of their methods.

 

Thanks for sharing Don. I googled your "timbrel" suggestion and read one quite scholarly article on Ancient Near Eastern music. Also, I have sat through some services at my local Temple Emmanuel. The music, seemed to be on a different musical scale and to me sounded like fingers on a chalk board.

 

And where does the Bible ever condemn such music?

 

Are we conformed to the world when we listen to music by men such as Tchaikovsky and Mozart and incorporate their music into our worship? Does enjoying music by lost and ungodly classical musicians make us lovers of the world?

You still have not given any evidence that the beats you (and I) don't like are unholy or worldly.

'I believe' is the operative phrase in your post - you may believe it but the Bible doesn't teach it.

 

Jordan, when God's tells His people to praise Him in dance, what kind of dance do you think He is talking about.

 

I have a hard time imagining how anyone could have sensual thoughts in response to this music or be stirred to rebellion against God or motivated to reject holiness. (And I didn't 'like' the sound of the second one )