Fact or Faked? Women & Divorcees Can Pastor SBC & Some IFB Churches

[jaigner]

In 1st-century Rome "love your neighbor" wouldn't have made much sense either, but I don't see you arguing to throw that one out.

I'm not arguing to throw anything out. "Love your neighbor" is a salient, transcendent command. "Husband of one wife" is a contextual, ad hoc admonition. The fact that we can't see the difference there is a hermeneutic nightmare.

 

[jaigner]

I wish that the hypothetical situation described in the OP would come to pass.

We are..embarrasingly..WAY behind in allowing our graced women to bless us with their spiritual gifts.

May God have mercy

You're right, friend. The SBC and Baptists at large will one day be very embarrassed because of this. And it won't be very long.

 

[fortytworc]

You're right, friend. The SBC and Baptists at large will one day be very embarrassed because of this. And it won't be very long.

Embarrassed? This would be a miracle approaching that experienced by Saul on his way to Damascus. That it happened says it can be repeated. Saul Knew he was doing God's work! Convinced that this new sect was an enemy of the Established religion, that its followers taught heresies contrary to the Law Given to his people directly by God, he set out in the name of God to wipe it out. Now the SBC is not imprisoning or killing those who disagree with them. They are, however so convinced that they are correct that there is no reason for embarrassment. It seems there is no need to step back and re-look at this in an honest search for the truth. Like Saul those opposing Biblical equality are wrong, period. A type of Damascus Road experience would, I believe do it. I say this because like Saul, they do want to serve God and His truth. When God points out the error there will be a change of heart and mind.

 

[Tom Bryant]

Embarrassed? This would be a miracle approaching that experienced by Saul on his way to Damascus. That it happened says it can be repeated. Saul Knew he was doing God's work! Convinced that this new sect was an enemy of the Established religion, that its followers taught heresies contrary to the Law Given to his people directly by God, he set out in the name of God to wipe it out. Now the SBC is not imprisoning or killing those who disagree with them. They are, however so convinced that they are correct that there is no reason for embarrassment. It seems there is no need to step back and re-look at this in an honest search for the truth. Like Saul those opposing Biblical equality are wrong, period. A type of Damascus Road experience would, I believe do it. I say this because like Saul, they do want to serve God and His truth. When God points out the error there will be a change of heart and mind.

Wow! Can you get your broad brush inside your house or do you keep it on your frnt lawn?

So if we don't agree with you, it is because (1) we haven't looked at it in an honest search for truth; (2) we are just wrong, period. (3) we really don't want to serve God and truth;

You have achieved a balance that is hard to achieve. You have dismissed any who disagree and at the same time acclaimed you spiritual superiority! Bravo!

And you think we are arrogant!

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Now the SBC is not imprisoning or killing those who disagree with them. They are, however so convinced that they are correct that there is no reason for embarrassment.

Isn't this true for most people?

 

[fortytworc]

Wow! Can you get your broad brush inside your house or do you keep it on your frnt lawn?

So if we don't agree with you, it is because (1) we haven't looked at it in an honest search for truth; (2) we are just wrong, period. (3) we really don't want to serve God and truth;

You have achieved a balance that is hard to achieve. You have dismissed any who disagree and at the same time acclaimed you spiritual superiority! Bravo!

And you think we are arrogant!

You are right. In part I am remembering my own experiences with others/my approach and attitudes. Still no reason for the "lump everyone together" action.
At this point I believe that it is past time to consider a new honest search for truth. Considering the size of the SBC, the influence it can have on the church at large, the ways the "role of women in the church" position held by many has been abused I would say that we,including women should re-study the Scriptures on this. I think that BECAUSE a strong desire to serve God is present it makes this hard to reconsider. Spiritual superiority? This is coming from a deep sorrow and repentance on my part. Yes,I believe the current position is wrong. I also wish I could repent for all men in the church for holding so tenaciously to this and ask the women to forgive me/us. I do not desire to dismiss anyone. Disagreement with me doesn't mean anything. I long for anyone to join in a fresh search, step back, throw this back on the table, and see what happens. I have been on what currently is the majority side. I have to be honest with myself and say that it probably is harder for me to listen to 'the other side' in an open way since I once held to it, studied it again, and changed my mind. To consider reversing my self may be hard. I can't ask someone to do something I am not willing to do, so I must listen with an open mind and heart. Thanks for the correction and causing me to pause.

 

[fortytworc]

Isn't this true for most people?

Yes it is. Myself included.

 

[DHK]

Perhaps the same way Phoebe met that 'qualification' for deacon?

Romans 16:1
I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae.

The word simply means "servant" and if translated consistently would be servant. All servants of the church should meet a certain standard. But all pastors must be male. Women cannot have authority over a man. They cannot teach a man.

 

[fortytworc]

The word simply means "servant" and if translated consistently would be servant. All servants of the church should meet a certain standard. But all pastors must be male. Women cannot have authority over a man. They cannot teach a man.

My assumption is that you are referencing
ITim2:12
But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority [over] a man

Paul is dealing with women coming in and Taking, or usurping authority (to usurp authority) Original: αὐθεντέω
Transliteration: Authenteo
Phonetic: ow-then-teh'-o
Definition:
1. one who with his own hands kills another
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master
4. to govern, exercise dominion over one
I believe this is the only place this word is used in all of scripture. It is my understanding that in the classical Greek of the day this was used as in “instigating or perpetuating a crime”.
We would not want anyone(male or female) to teach anyone from the position of coming in and forcefully taking authority.Paul was addressing those in the congregation who were out of order. The language is very strong. This is undue, stolen authority.

 

[Yeshua1]

You're right, friend. The SBC and Baptists at large will one day be very embarrassed because of this. And it won't be very long.

Just trying to understand WHY obeying the scriptures would mean demeaning /embarassing to women?

Men/Women ARE indeed fully equals before God, as both saved by same messiah, made in His image, have gifts and talents etc

Just that there ARE male gendered roles/function from God, same for Women...

Females given honor of motherhood, not the men!

in same fashion, men called and ordained to be head of household/Pastors/Elders

equals, but with distinct/different roles/positions

Equals doe sNOT mean identical positions/roles/functions!

 

[DHK]

My assumption is that you are referencing
ITim2:12
But I do not allow a woman to teach, or to exercise authority [over] a man

Paul is dealing with women coming in and Taking, or usurping authority (to usurp authority) Original: αὐθεντέω
Transliteration: Authenteo
Phonetic: ow-then-teh'-o
Definition:
1. one who with his own hands kills another
2. one who acts on his own authority, autocratic
3. an absolute master
4. to govern, exercise dominion over one
I believe this is the only place this word is used in all of scripture. It is my understanding that in the classical Greek of the day this was used as in “instigating or perpetuating a crime”.
We would not want anyone(male or female) to teach anyone from the position of coming in and forcefully taking authority.Paul was addressing those in the congregation who were out of order. The language is very strong. This is undue, stolen authority.

No, that is not what it means. It is a straightforward command that a woman was not to usurp authority over a man. It is a very simple statement that doesn't need to be rationalized away. There is a reason for it.
The man is the head of the household, and as such is accountable to God. There is order in the house, and responsibility to God.
Look in 1Cor.11

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
--The head of the woman is the man.
The head of the man is Christ.
There is order in the house.

In verses 4-9 there is a discussion of why a woman should wear a head-covering in the services of the church. It is all related to this very reason--that the man has authority over the woman. It shows the headship of the family, or the head of the family is the man, not the woman.

 

[Yeshua1]

The word simply means "servant" and if translated consistently would be servant. All servants of the church should meet a certain standard. But all pastors must be male. Women cannot have authority over a man. They cannot teach a man.

Interesting that phoebe is mentioned here as example of women having a place in the Church from god...

we are NOT saying they don't, its just that the positions of being pastor/Elder has NO scriptures to support that either males/females can be such!

bible clearly references ONLY males can apply and be honored as being such in church!

 

[fortytworc]

Just trying to understand WHY obeying the scriptures would mean demeaning /embarassing to women?

Men/Women ARE indeed fully equals before God, as both saved by same messiah, made in His image, have gifts and talents etc

Just that there ARE male gendered roles/function from God, same for Women...

Females given honor of motherhood, not the men!

in same fashion, men called and ordained to be head of household/Pastors/Elders

equals, but with distinct/different roles/positions

Equals doe sNOT mean identical positions/roles/functions!

Whether I am correct in my beliefs on this subject this is one of those doctrines that has been abused to the max throughout history. When ANYONE (women here) is told they must stay in any abusive situation it is wrong. When women are told to do so because they are under authority it is a gross misuse of the scriptures. That is just the tip of the iceberg of abuse. That is a partial answer for you. Abusing a doctrine does not make the doctrine wrong. Concerning women as pastors definitely ties in with this thought from a little different angle. Correct me if I am wrong, but we use terms pertaining to many things which aren't in the scriptures. In this case I don't think you will find 'head of the (his) house, roles, equal but,___. We were created equal. It took male and female to show the image of God. God as three in ONE. That Unity, the ONE image was shattered when sin entered. Now in Christ we should begin living out that same equality we were created with. Showing once again Gods Image.

 

[DHK]

Whether I am correct in my beliefs on this subject this is one of those doctrines that has been abused to the max throughout history.

Many doctrines (such as the trinity) have been abused throughout history. That is no reason to further abuse this one.

When ANYONE (women here) is told they must stay in any abusive situation it is wrong.

Absolutely. I agree.

When women are told to do so because they are under authority it is a gross misuse of the scriptures. That is just the tip of the iceberg of abuse. That is a partial answer for you.

I agree here; but that is not what the Scripture teaches, in fact it teaches the opposite. It does teach that in such situations it is right for the woman to leave. But she must be led of the Lord. It is her decision.

Abusing a doctrine does not make the doctrine wrong.

True. Abusing the trinity does not make the doctrine of the trinity wrong. Yet Oneness Pentecostals totally pervert the doctrine.

Concerning women as pastors definitely ties in with this thought from a little different angle. Correct me if I am wrong, but we use terms pertaining to many things which aren't in the scriptures.

Concerning women pastors the Scriptures are very clear. The women has no business being a pastor.

In this case I don't think you will find 'head of the (his) house, roles, equal but,___. We were created equal. It took male and female to show the image of God.

No, it did not. Man was made in the image of God. The woman was made from the man, after the man. She also was made in the image of man. She was made as a helper to man. Her role was different. In even in the Fall she was to be submissive to her husband. It would be like that forever throughout all of our generations.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

God as three in ONE. That Unity, the ONE image was shattered when sin entered. Now in Christ we should begin living out that same equality we were created with. Showing once again Gods Image.

The curse is still in this world. Nothing has changed. Our bodies will not be glorified until the resurrection occurs.

 

[fortytworc]

No, that is not what it means. It is a straightforward command that a woman was not to usurp authority over a man. It is a very simple statement that doesn't need to be rationalized away. There is a reason for it.
The man is the head of the household, and as such is accountable to God. There is order in the house, and responsibility to God.
Look in 1Cor.11

1 Corinthians 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
--The head of the woman is the man.
The head of the man is Christ.
There is order in the house.

In verses 4-9 there is a discussion of why a woman should wear a head-covering in the services of the church. It is all related to this very reason--that the man has authority over the woman. It shows the headship of the family, or the head of the family is the man, not the woman.

Would it be ok for another man to USURP Authority? The Takeover is where the harm occurs.
ICor. 11 is right in line with the theme of the letter which is Unity. The people at the church of Corinth were dividing over everything. Paul was constantly calling them to live out the oneness of the body of Christ. In each example there is a head and a body. One does not exist without the other. Paul uses the human body example elsewhere in this letter. My body does not live without my head. My head does not live without my body. I am many parts but one body. You have Man(head)Woman(body) mutually dependent as one. Christ(head)Man(body)...God(head)Christ(body) This is not an example of hierarchy but of unity.This follows the theme Paul stressed . Concerning head coverings, If I am wrong about women as pastors these verses do say that as long as a woman has a head covering she can 1.)Pray and 2.)Prophecy. That would be At Church, In the Meeting, With Men and Women present. As most Baptists define prophecy that would mostly be teaching. Even under other definitions it would at least include instruction.(also teaching)

 

[fortytworc]

Many doctrines (such as the trinity) have been abused throughout history. That is no reason to further abuse this one.

Absolutely. I agree.

I agree here; but that is not what the Scripture teaches, in fact it teaches the opposite. It does teach that in such situations it is right for the woman to leave. But she must be led of the Lord. It is her decision.

True. Abusing the trinity does not make the doctrine of the trinity wrong. Yet Oneness Pentecostals totally pervert the doctrine.

Concerning women pastors the Scriptures are very clear. The women has no business being a pastor.

No, it did not. Man was made in the image of God. The woman was made from the man, after the man. She also was made in the image of man. She was made as a helper to man. Her role was different. In even in the Fall she was to be submissive to her husband. It would be like that forever throughout all of our generations.

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

The curse is still in this world. Nothing has changed. Our bodies will not be glorified until the resurrection occurs.

Gen1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. 27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

27"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created He them.

"Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created" (Genesis 5:2).
He did say to pray Thy kingdom come. The kingdom of God is here. The kingdom is in (among you.) As His children ,living to some degree in the kingdom I just respectfully disagree with you. We do still live in a fallen world but when and where we can we should do what we can to live that to the world. A question : Why don't we object to other things done in this fallen world to reverse the curse?

 

[jaigner]

Just trying to understand WHY obeying the scriptures would mean demeaning /embarassing to women?

Men/Women ARE indeed fully equals before God, as both saved by same messiah, made in His image, have gifts and talents etc

Just that there ARE male gendered roles/function from God, same for Women...

Females given honor of motherhood, not the men!

in same fashion, men called and ordained to be head of household/Pastors/Elders

equals, but with distinct/different roles/positions

Equals doe sNOT mean identical positions/roles/functions!

JesusChaser, we've gone over and over and over this. I've told you why. I've sent you to reputable scholars. Most evangelicals no longer believe women are prohibited from all levels of ministry. You're not even trying.

And the SBC will be as embarrassed of this issue as they are of their race relations history (or at least should be).

 

[DHK]

Gen1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. 27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

27"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created He them.

"Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created" (Genesis 5:2).

--And the woman was to be his helper.

He did say to pray Thy kingdom come. The kingdom of God is here. The kingdom is in (among you.) As His children ,living to some degree in the kingdom I just respectfully disagree with you. We do still live in a fallen world but when and where we can we should do what we can to live that to the world. A question : Why don't we object to other things done in this fallen world to reverse the curse?

He said, "Pray after this manner," not to pray this exact prayer. It is doubtful that anyone can pray that exact prayer and be sincere about it.

Don't take phrases out of context, nor the prayer out of context. Remember he was speaking to his disciples who were expecting Christ, as the Messiah to set up His Kingdom during his lifetime.

But that part of the prayer goes like this:
"Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

God's kingdom has not come. It will come when Jesus comes again. Jesus offered it at that time but the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah. He will set up his kingdom after he comes and will reign for a thousand years. It is a prayer for the coming of Christ.

Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Do you pray that part of the prayer. Do you pray that you will do God's will here on earth as it is accomplished by his angels in heaven? And how is that done? Immediately, without question, without complaint, without procrastination, all the time, with all one's heart, mind, strength and soul.
Is that how you carry out God's will on earth--as it is in heaven??

We can't reverse the curse. Only God can. And it will be only when he comes again.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
--All of God's creation is under the curse. It groans and travails in pain, even now. Those are strong words.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--And so do we. We suffer, as does all of creation. We wait for the redemption of our bodies which will happen when Christ comes again. And at that time the curse will be lifted off all the earth.

 

[fortytworc]

--And the woman was to be his helper.

He said, "Pray after this manner," not to pray this exact prayer. It is doubtful that anyone can pray that exact prayer and be sincere about it.

--Don't take phrases out of context, nor the prayer out of context. Remember he was speaking to his disciples who were expecting Christ, as the Messiah to set up His Kingdom during his lifetime.

Did not think I was taking things out of context. Just trying to be brief.( difficult for me)

But that part of the prayer goes like this:
"Thy kingdom come,
Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

God's kingdom has not come. It will come when Jesus comes again. Jesus offered it at that time but the Jews rejected Christ as their Messiah. He will set up his kingdom after he comes and will reign for a thousand years. It is a prayer for the coming of Christ.

Thy will be done, on earth as it is in heaven.
Do you pray that part of the prayer. Do you pray that you will do God's will here on earth as it is accomplished by his angels in heaven? And how is that done? Immediately, without question, without complaint, without procrastination, all the time, with all one's heart, mind, strength and soul.
Is that how you carry out God's will on earth--as it is in heaven??

Jesus was perfectly obedient but he prayed often.

We can't reverse the curse. Only God can. And it will be only when he comes again.

Romans 8:22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.
--All of God's creation is under the curse. It groans and travails in pain, even now. Those are strong words.

Romans 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
--And so do we. We suffer, as does all of creation. We wait for the redemption of our bodies which will happen when Christ comes again. And at that time the curse will be lifted off all the earth.

Yes!
Again, I was talking about our attempts to undo the aspects of the curse that we can.
The ground was cursed with thorns ,etc. We have been working on all the stuff farmers use to "uncurse" the ground. Living longer ,healthier lives. Taking as much pain out of childbirth as we can. These things Plus woman submitting to her husband were part of the curse. We have been working in the other aspects of it to make things easier for ourselves

He did say to pray Thy kingdom come. The kingdom of God is here. The kingdom is in (among you.) As His children ,living to some degree in the kingdom I just respectfully disagree with you. We do still live in a fallen world but when and where we can we should do what we can to live that to the world. A question : Why don't we object to other things done in this fallen world to reverse the curse?

Gen1:26 And God said, Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness. And let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. 27 And God created man in His image; in the image of God He created him. He created them male and female.

27"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created He them.

"Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created" (Genesis 5:2).

He created Them in His image...called Them Adam in the Day He created them

Indeed we will not see the fulness of his kingdom until He returns.

 

[Yeshua1]

JesusChaser, we've gone over and over and over this. I've told you why. I've sent you to reputable scholars. Most evangelicals no longer believe women are prohibited from all levels of ministry. You're not even trying.

Those "scholars' are Are ALL coming to the text with pre held notions as regarding roles of women in modern society/culture, so they skew the understanding o fthe scriptures thru those lenses!
So they come to the Bible to have their agenda proved/confirmed, NOT allowing the text to set what should be their held positions!

WHAT verse supports a woman being in a church as a pastor/Elder?

And the SBC will be as embarrassed of this issue as they are of their race relations history (or at least should be).

Not embarrassed, what would qualify for that would be bowing down to PC pressures/cultural mandates, instead of staying true to the word of God!