Faith # 4

[Tea]

A person is saved, regenerated, before they hear and believe the Gospel.

That’s not biblical, and there’s a reason why we label that as hyper-Calvinism.

The elect are guaranteed to be saved, but the process of that happening in time is absolutely necessary.

1 Corinthians 6:10-11 (ESV)
Nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

 

[Brightfame52]

That's not biblical BF.

Oh yes it is

 

[Silverhair]

Oh yes it is

Only in your mind BF.

 

[Brightfame52]

You have to be honest with yourself and see a need for a Savior.

You have to be of the truth, that's who hears the voice of the Savior Jn 18:37

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

BTW the natural mans heart isnt honest with God Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

deceitful also means not honest

 

[Brightfame52]

That’s not biblical,

Yes it is

 

[Brightfame52]

Only in your mind BF.

Thats what you think

 

[Tea]

@Brightfame52

Ephesians 2:3 (ESV)
Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

How can someone be saved and be a child of wrath at the same time? That makes no sense at all.

 

[Charlie24]

You have to be of the truth, that's who hears the voice of the Savior Jn 18:37

37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

BTW the natural mans heart isnt honest with God Jer 17:9

9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

deceitful also means not honest

Yes, everyone who wants the truth.

The hearing of the Gospel is what presents the truth by the power of the Holy Spirit.

"How can they hear without a preacher?"

You've got it backwards. You are presenting Hyper-Calvinism.

 

[Brightfame52]

How can someone be saved and be a child of wrath at the same time? That makes no sense at all.

By Christ dying for them and putting away their sin debt. Christ paid for what they are by nature so God doesn't count it against them, He has for Christs sake forgiven them. So legally they are saved from the penalty of sin

 

[Brightfame52]

Yes, everyone who wants the truth.

You have to be of the Truth. So if a person wants it, they have been born of God and have a new heart for the truth

 

[Charlie24]

You have to be of the Truth. So if a person wants it, they have been born of God and have a new heart for the truth

If anyone wants it, believes it, and accepts it, they will be born of God.

That's why Christ said, "whosoever will let him come and drink of the water of life freely."

But if they hear the words of the Gospel and have no hunger and thirst for righteousness as did those Pharisees, they will be deaf to the hearing that comes from the heart, the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Silverhair]

@Brightfame52

Ephesians 2:3 (ESV)
Among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

How can someone be saved and be a child of wrath at the same time? That makes no sense at all.

BF is not looking for a logical answer, or even the truth of scripture, just one that fits his preconceived philosophical position.

 

[Brightfame52]

If anyone wants it, believes it, and accepts it, they will be born of God.

You must have a new heart and nature to desire the things of God, otherwise our wants and desires are dictated by our nature and its desires Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So again as stated we must first be born of God with a new heart and new set of desires.

A meat eating lion wont have desires 4 blackberries because his nature isnt compatible with that.

 

[Charlie24]

You must have a new heart and nature to desire the things of God, otherwise our wants and desires are dictated by our nature and its desires Eph 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

So again as stated we must first be born of God with a new heart and new set of desires.

A meat eating lion wont have desires 4 blackberries because his nature isnt compatible with that.

That's called Hyper-Calvinism. I'm sure you've heard that before.

Born-again before you ever hear the Gospel.

 

[Brightfame52]

That's called Hyper-Calvinism. I

Thats what you call it. One has to be already blessed to hunger and thirst after righteousness Matt 5:6

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Because by nature we cant do that.

 

[Charlie24]

Thats what you call it. One has to be already blessed to hunger and thirst after righteousness Matt 5:6

Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.

Because by nature we cant do that.

That's where that disagreement we have comes from, that thing called free will.

Hearing, seeing a need and believing, then granted righteousness.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner than 0730 GMT 130 am (EST) (Thr) /1030 PST pm (Wed)

 

[Brightfame52]

That's where that disagreement we have comes from, that thing called free will.

Yep

 

[Ascetic X]

Hyper-Calvinism is ideal for timid folks and lazy types.

Historically, hyper-Calvinism has contended that the Holy Spirit regenerates the elect apart from the hearing of the Gospel and that one can be regenerate without believing—perhaps without ever believing. They argue that Gospel preaching does not result in people getting saved—rather it locates those already born again.

It is aggressively anti-missions and opposed to sharing faith (evangelism), because it denies the need to preach the gospel to all people, believing that God's predestination means only the elect will be saved regardless of external effort.

Thus, no need to repent, hear the gospel, or believe the Word. God chooses you and does all that stuff for you, over-riding your will. Super Easy Non-Believism. You do nothing, just wait and see if you are an elected one or not. Preaching and witnessing are not needed. Getting Bibles to foreign lands is a waste of time.

In contrast, historic Calvinism, championed by figures like John Calvin himself, emphasizes the importance of evangelism and missions as ordained means by which God accomplishes His purposes, though it differs from Arminianism in the understanding of human will and divine grace.

Hyper-Calvinism

Denies the need for evangelism: Believes that since God has already chosen who will be saved (predestination), there is no point in evangelizing people, who are mostly the non-elect.

Opposes missions: Rejects the idea that the gospel should be preached to all people, or at least to those who show no signs of being chosen. And what would those signs be?

Contradicts the "well-meant offer": Rejects the idea that God offers salvation to everyone who hears the gospel, even if only the elect are ultimately saved.

I Timothy 2:3,4 3
This is good and pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who wants everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish but everyone to come to repentance.

Romans 10:12-13
For there is no difference between Jew and Greek: The same Lord is Lord of all, and gives richly to all who call on Him, / for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.” (NOT “is already saved.”)

Isaiah 45:22
Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. (NOT “Turning to Me means you are already saved”).

Thus, many statements by Jesus are negated entirely.

 

[Tea]

By Christ dying for them and putting away their sin debt.

That is true; however, the process of that occurring unfolds within the realm of time. It is similar to Christ being called the lamb slain before the foundation of the world, yet the actual event of the crucifixion had to take place for that reality to hold true.