Maybe if you would read the entire passage, rather than replacing the parts that don't agree with you with ellipses, you would understand them and they wouldn't appear to contradict.
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'Faith Alone' and James 2:24.
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
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Maybe if you would read the entire passage, rather than replacing the parts that don't agree with you with ellipses, you would understand them and they wouldn't appear to contradict.
How much is enough for you? Will this do?:
Compare:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
With:
20 because by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified in his sight; for through the law cometh the knowledge of sin. Ro 3
Instead of knee jerk slandering me, care to give your explanation of this?
The means of salvation is by the atoning death of Jesus alone, and received thru faith alone!
The five solas are not only extra-Biblical, it's gibberish to say five things together to be alone.
And the scripture EXPRESSLY states, justification is NOT by faith alone, so that sola is ANTI-Biblical.
Justification is thru the death of jesus, received thru faith, and that only and alone fully justifies us! once saved, James kicks in going forward from there!
Yeshua1 says:
The scripture says:
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Jas 2
Peruse all these 'justifications' from Romans alone:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8
...and you persist with the claim our justification is through our faith alone, and that after the scripture has expressly contradicted you.
The scripture says:
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Jas 2
Peruse all these 'justifications' from Romans alone:
13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Ro 3
1 Being therefore justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ;
9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Ro 5
33 Who shall lay anything to the charge of God`s elect? It is God that justifieth; Ro 8
...and you persist with the claim our justification is through our faith alone, and that after the scripture has expressly contradicted you.
Not really, as the reformers would see them as describing what must a sinner do to be justified before God, and once that is dione, what justifies them as now being saved before men?
We are the COMPLETE JEWS. Your saying Jesus Christ is not your example to follow!
Go figure.
Satan has perfect faith in God, He spoke to GOD face to face. He KNOWS God is Good. Satan was GOOD once most exulted above the other angels. Think of all the time he spent BEFORE he turned to evil.
He had perfect faith.
FAITH does not equate to allegiance. Faith is like VOLUME. You can turn it up on GOOD music you can also turn it up on NOISE.
Your saying hey volume alone makes for good listening.
Oh no..... Allegiance to God is LOVING GOD.
Faith Hope Love the greatest is FAITH? NOPE------> 1 Corinthians 13
13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.
You don't even believe in faith alone!
If I believed in faith alone would I be talking to you? heck no, I would be like ok God handle it. And thats it I don't have to do nothing.
If Good WORKS wasn't required then how come half the time your telling us we are doing it wrong!?!??!
So what!? You say that doesn't make a difference anyways!
I know this wasn't directed to me, but it's pretty straightforward.
In Romans 2:13, Paul is telling the Jews that possession of the law does not save unless you keep it. He goes on to challenge them about their law-keeping (Romans 2:17-24); they can't do it and they don't do it and they never have done it (cf. Acts 15:10). He concludes, For we have previously charged both Jew and Greeks that they are all under sin. As it is written.......' (Romans 3:9-10), and he goes one to quote a pile of O.T. texts to prove that the Jews never have kept the law. The purpose of the law is to convict of sin, that 'all the world may become guilty before God' (Romans 3:19-20). 'therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight.' Not because there's anything wrong with the law, but there's something wrong with mankind. We're all sinners.
Yea, but those in Ro 2:13-15 are described as DOERS of the law and justified. They are DOING BY NATURE the things of the law. Those in Ro:2:7 are rendered eternal life from their STEADFASTNESS IN WELL-DOING. Those in v.10 receive glory and honor and peace because of their GOOD WORKS. In v. 13 the DOERS OF THE LAW ARE JUSTIFIED.
Are you a doer of the law Martin?
You better be.
Not in the sense that Paul means it in Romans 2:13-15. 'For in my inner being I delight in God's law; but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind............What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? Thanks be to God- through Jesus Christ our Lord!'
Either you are totally, completely, utterly misunderstanding Romans 1-3 or you are just having a laugh.
Considering "their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them", why would you think these two are in different 'senses'?
No, I've a very good understanding of it, it's people like you that are completely, utterly enslaved to the presuppositions of the theology they've boxed themselves into that have missed the 'sense' of the passages in Ro 2.
Now think outside of the box Martin. Try. How are the 'doers of the law' of Romans 2:13 any different than the 'fulfillers of the law' in Romans 13:8-10? Or 'the doers' in Matthew 7:12?
This is something every professor of Christ had better be doing. Period. No 'laughing' matter.
14 What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked and in lack of daily food,
16 and one of you say unto them, Go in peace, be ye warmed and filled; and yet ye give them not the things needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it have not works, is dead in itself. Jas 2
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 for I was hungry, and ye did not give me to eat; I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink;
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in; naked, and ye clothed me not; sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Mt 25
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13 for not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified: Ro 2
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Jas 2
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2
24 Ye see that by works a man is justified, and not only by faith. Jas 2
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2
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Because these guys in Romans 2:13-15 are not saved. What Paul is saying here is that Jews shouldn't boast about having the law because even Gentiles show that they have a knowledge of the law when they do the things written in it. We all know agnostics and atheists who don't steal, don't commit adultery or murder. But that does not mean they are saved. 'For whoever shall keep the whole law and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all' (James 2:10). Being a moral sort of guy cannot save anyone. We need a Saviour, and that is the whole of Paul's argument all through Romans 1-3. We need a righteousness that exceeds that of the Scribes and Pharisees (Matthew 5:20), and we can't find it ourselves (Romans 3:20), but God has provided it in the Lord Jesus Christ (Romans 3:21-24). That's the Gospel, you know!
1. The doers of the law in Romans 2:13 are not saved (Romans 3:20). They are random Gentiles who sometimes obey the moral law.
2. The fulfillers of the law (Romans 13:8-10) are saved. They are those 'who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints (Romans 1:7).
3. The 'doers' of Matthew 7:12 are 'disciples' (Matthew 5:1). Our Lord therefore commands them as disciples. Whether they were true disciples is another question (John 8:31).
2 & 3 do not obey the law in order to be saved; they do so because they are saved. 'And everyone who has this hope in him purifies himself even as He is pure' (1 John 3:3). The love of God has already been bestowed on them (v.1) and they are children of God, born again by the Spirit of God and zealous of good deeds. Now the same John who wrote 3:3 also wrote 1:8-10, so we are not talking sinless perfection, but if someone makes no effort to purify himself, it does not mean that he's lost his salvation; it means he never had it (Matthew 7:23).
Well Amen to all that! We are saved by Christ alone, by grace alone, through faith alone, but the faith which alone saves does not stay alone. Our salvation is 'not of works lest anyone should boast,' but 'we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.' If we have no works, it seems likely that we are not God's workmanship, but we do not become God's workmanship by doing works. We do works when we have been saved by grace through faith.
Like I said, completely and utterly enslaved to the presuppositions of your theology. These Gentiles are regenerate, the law written upon their hearts, synonymous with the 'circumcision of the heart' in the same context.
Get it? Circumcised in heart. The law written in their heart. Jews INWARDLY.
....and if you're going to go with the old 'conscience' explanation:
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, Ro 9
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'Then they said to Him, "What shall we do that we may work the works of God?" Jeus answered and said to them, "This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent"' (John 6:28-29).
Right! I've got it now. So unregenerate people don't have consciences. Thanks for letting me know.
I didn't say it did. You posted three random pieces of Scripture without comment or explanation and I posted another one.
But properly understood, Scripture will never contradict Scripture.
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