Faith and works -- huh?

[BobRyan]

Well I have to admit this is a difference. I see only two resurrections in Rev 20 and only two mentioned in John 5 - and the way they do that - it seems like the righteous are only in one of them.

I see your point that the door is "left open" to the possibility that there could be some "succeeding" cases in Rev 20 at the 2nd resurrection. But the "Action described" does not include "And those whose names WERE found in the book of life were taken to heaven". The only action you "see" in Rev 20 after the millenium -- is tossing people in the lake of fire.

Your argument for not tossing them in -- seems to be from silence. If that were the only text dealing with it - it would at least leave a door open to the possibility.

But given the background that there is one resurrection for the righteous and another for the wicked (John 5) and given the way Rev 20 seems to show the righteous (for sure the righteous) before the thousand years "in the first resurrection"...

Well - perhaps we agree to differ on that wording in the last half of the chapter.

Question: Does your group call this "two justifications"??

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[av1611jim]

Bob; Rather it is understood as two parts of the whole. Much like santification. Or salvation. As I type this it occurs to me that it indeed could be three phase. As in; past present and future.
But that could get confusing, I admit.

As to the passage in question; It is no more an argument from silence as it would be than "whosoever does not call upon the name of the Lord shall not be saved." Still your point is taken. I at one time believed that everyone who is a the GWT is tossed into the LOF. But that is not what is being said. It does not say "everyone" but rather "whosoever". By that alone I think my view is valid. Although, I did not come to this view strictly on the wording of a part of one verse. That would be NUTS don't you think?

Let us remember that Scripture did not have the chapter and verse divisions as we have it now, OK? As such we see in the following;

Re 21:4
And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

If there are not any who are the children of God at the GWT, the why the need for God wiping away all tears? Certainly iit is not because we would be crying for our loved ones who did not make it for we read elsewhere that when God makes His judgements, those in heaven shout "Just and righteous and holy and true are Thy judgements." (Paraphrased by me) So obviously, we would NOT be crying for our loved ones. This leads me to ask, WHO has been crying? Would it not be they who because of their own disobedience had disqualified themselves from the Kingdom, and had endured the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" as spoken of by Jesus. See Matt 24:44-51.

Jesus is speaking of His OWN servants there.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[BobRyan]

But that means that the saved are in hell but never actually "destroyed in hell" and certainly not "destroyed body and soul" in hell as Christ said in MAtt 10 -- but they are suffering the torment of fiery hell for 1000's of years and waiting until after the millennium - correct?

Your view also presumes that if your precious little daughter is roasting in the flames of hell - you would be rejoicing over that fact as a saint in heaven - does it not??

---------------------

The alternative is that you really are destroyed "body and soul" in the fires of hell and that you really do weep over your child suffering in the lake of fire.

God is love and those who serve him are KNOWN by their love. How could it ever be that they would love LESS the closer they get to God.

We may well rejoice that the wicked monsters of earth, Satan and his angels are all burned - but when it comes to our own families and friends whom we are commanded to love here today and who we shall always love even as God loves them -- we will surely weep over any suffering they have until the time comes when they suffer no more.

Anyway - I know this is way off topic here and probably should be its own thread on Hell and the Lake of Fire...

But it was interesting to see some kind of recognition of Christ's statement that NOT everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven.

Question. Do you have a text that says the Kingdom of Heaven Ends? Do you have one that says it ends at the end of the Millennium?

In Christ,

Bob

 

[av1611jim]

You are of course correct. We are getting very far afield. As to the question about the end of the millenial Kingdom?

Re 20:2
And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3
And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4
And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7
And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

You know the rest, so I will save some band width. Some have said this is figurative. I am a literalist myself. It says what it says, unless the context leads one to another conclusion.

Christ will have and does have two kingdoms. One is eternal. The other is literal and temporary as defined by this text. The Israelites were looking for a literal King. Christ is that King. The Israelites were looking for a literal Kingdom. The millenial Kingdom will be that Kingdom.

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[Claudia_T]

FLMike:

In my opinion, the reason Christians are constantly argueing over faith alone verses works is because even though most agree in a general way that yes, if we are a Christian we will do some good works... the problem is that so many Christians today have the idea that doing good works IS AN OPTION and not a requirement of God. They act as if they can or not and to God it doesnt make any difference, neither does it make a difference to their salvation. It's a life and death issue. Also in my opinion, many wish to ease their consciences and make excuses for sin and so they seize upon all the Bible verses they can find that ... taken by themselves... seem to support the idea that works dont really matter, the keeping of the commandments doesnt matter, and that these things are merely a moral option.


LOVE: A CONDITION OF ETERNAL LIFE:

HOWEVER, let me show you a few Bible passages that clearly tell us otherwise... John tells us we have passed from death to (eternal) life IF we love the brethren.

I John 3:14,15: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him


So let's look at the biblical meaning of "loved WHAT IS LOVE? are we now free to define that for ourselves? NO! Many have the mistaken idea that in New Testament times, under the new covenant, we must only have "love" and that the Ten Commandments are merely a "dead letter" that we need no longer concern ourselves with. However, the principles of love are defined within God's Ten Commandment Law. Let's listen to the Jesus...

"Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked Jesus a question, saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? "Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment.And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Matthew 22:36-40 The reason that Jesus said, "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets" is because the first 4 commandments define love to God (Thou shalt have no other gods before me, Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, etc.) and the last 6 define love to thy neighbor (Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal). This same idea is repeated by the Apostle Paul in the book of Romans:

"...he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law. For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended (summarized) in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. " Romans 13:8,9: So you see then that love to God and neighbor is merely a SUMMARY of or is briefly comprehended in the Ten Commandment Law. And not only that but both Jesus and Paul were merely reiterating what had already been declared in old Testament times! Watch this:

"Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord: and thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might." Deuteronomy 6:4,5.

"Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself." Leviticus 19:18.


Sound familiar? Jesus was merely quoting directly out of the old testament when He said Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind and Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

God's claims have always been the same. Jesus did not really give us a "new" commandment to keep, He was bringing to light the foundation principles of love which have always underlined the ten commandments of old. This is why John said the following words:

"And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning." I John 2:3-7

and REMEMBER, we were told that IF we have love THEN we have passed from death unto life. So you see then that keeping God's commandments is NOT an option, but a requirement.

-----------

WALKING IN THE SPIRIT: A CONDITION OF ETERNAL LIFE

Okay now let's look at being "in the Spirit" and see if it matters to God or to our eternal salvation whether we are doing that or not...

Romans:8
1: There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.
8: So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.


Did you take note that we are not under condemnation IF we walk in the Spirit? and not in the flesh? Did you also take notice that those who walk in the flesh and are CARNAL cannot, I repeat, cannot keep the Law of God? Therefore, what does it mean to walk in the Spirit? The Bible says that "Walking in the Spirit means to keep God's Law".

Did you ALSO notice that the Bible says that "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his", meaning that if you do not keep God's law, you are NOT a Christian and God does not claim you as His own!

So is keeping the commandments, doing good works, an OPTION? NO!It is a requirement for eternal life. If you have GENUINE FAITH it will lead to keeping the Law of God. If you do not keep the law of God it is evidence that you dont have real genuine faith. And only those who have genuine faith will be in heaven.


What will cause you to be under condemnation of DEATH? Let's read:

Romans 6:11-16
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"

If you, because you are under grace, get the idea that you can then sin and no longer obey God's law, what happens according to what we just read? You are then a SERVANT OF SIN and thus under the condemnation of DEATH and not eligible for eternal life, according to the Bible.

Yet again, in Galatians, we are told that when we keep the law of God, which, summed up, means to love God and love our neighbor (which is the keeping of the ten commandments, we remember Paul said in Romans)THEN we are walking in the Spirit and not in the flesh, and we already learned walking in the flesh brings death and condemnation.

READ:

Galatians 5:
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Now one thing that too many Christians completely misunderstand when they read in verse 18: "But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law"... is that this is referring to the law of sin and death. If you sin, you will die... kind of like the law of gravity, or the what you sow you will reap idea. But read again in the above verses and see if you can catch this idea there... IF you walk in the Spirit and exhibit the fruits of the Spirit which is love, etc... then you are no longer under condemnation... WHY??? because: verse 23:"against such there is no law." You see? There is no law against love... if you keep the law there is no law then to condemn you for breaking it anymore. Romans 8:"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death."

its like, if you break the law and go to jail, and the judge sentences you... but some nice advocate comes along and gets you free on grace and mercy... you get out of jail. Do you now go out and commit the same crimes? of course NOT!! If you do, you would be thrown back in jail. But if you stop doing the crimes and start on a new walk in life then there is no longer any law to condemn you, why? because you are no longer breaking it!


"He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him" 1Jn:2:4.


Ephesians 5:3-6 "But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience."

Well so much for the false doctrine heard so frequently from the lips of the false teachers who claim that "works have nothing to do with our salvation".


People love to be coddled in their sins. People love to hear that "everything will be allright, dont worry about it". People love to hear the messages of false teachers who will lull them into a sense of false security.


1John:4:
1: Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
2: Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
3: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
4: Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
5: They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.
6: We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
7: Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
8: He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

Did you get that? If you do not have LOVE then you do not KNOW God and you are under the "spirit of error".

To claim that "we only need to believe" is an unbiblical lie! --keep in mind this passage is talking about HOW TO SPOT A FALSE PROPHET and how to test them!


I John 3:14,15: We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.



John 8: 34: Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.


Romans 6:11-16 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid. Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?"


Rv:20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rv:20:13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Rv:22:12: And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.

Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rv:14:12: Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Rv:22:14: Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Jms:2:14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

---------

Claudia Thompson

http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org
http://www.countrymanordesigns.com
http://www.christiangraphics.org

 

[Claudia_T]

and besides all that, you are not free to make up your own commandments and substitute them for God's Commandments... such as the Sabbath commandment..

Exodus 20:
8: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9: Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11: For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Notice God said the seventh day and not Sunday, which is the commandment the Roman Catholic church changed and Protestants blindly have followed for centuries? Mere human beings are not free to create their own commandments.

Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?

Mt:15:6: And honour not his father or his mother, he shall be free. Thus have ye made the commandment of God of none effect by your tradition.

Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

Mk:7:13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

...but thats a whole other topic

(for more on that, go here: http://www.religiouscounterfeits.org to my site and click on "who is the Antichrist" and also scroll down and click on the little book "National Sunday law"

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

FLMIke, I forgot to say that you asked what difference it makes?

your beliefs about faith verse works makes the difference between eternal life and destruction... yours, mine and everyone else's.

 

[BobRyan]

Christ will have and does have two kingdoms. One is eternal. The other is literal and temporary as defined by this text. The Israelites were looking for a literal King. Christ is that King. The Israelites were looking for a literal Kingdom. The millenial Kingdom will be that Kingdom.

Ok so now ...

21 "" Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22 "" Many will say to Me on that day, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23 ""And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Your argument is that the "Kingdom of Heaven" ENDS at the end of the Millenium -- right?

And when the saints (not just the jews) take posession of the kindgom -- it is a temporary Kingdom that HAS an end at the end of the Millenium - right?

Dan 7
25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'

You can see how some of you key points are hard for me to follow.


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

It appears from Daniel 2 that the Kingdom God sets up at the 2nd coming - at the end of man's pagan kingdoms -- has no end.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[av1611jim]

Yes it DOES appear that way doesn't it? But it is not so. You are correct that the "Kingdom of God" is everlasting. For the reason that there shall be NO MORE men who rule AFTER it is set up. But it BEGINS on earth at Jerusalem. See Zech 14.

Christ will set up a literal, visible, earthly, physical Kingdom AT Jerusalem (Zech 14) which will last for 1000 years as per Rev. 20. "They lived and reigned with Him a thousand years."

But that is NOT the end per se. For we know His Kingdom continues into eternity from THAT point onward. The Kingdom of Christ is THAT Kingdom which the OT prophets and Kings (etc) foresaw and hoped for. It is THAT Kingdom which is said to be of David. Christ will sit on a literal throne in the city of David. THIS is the Kingdom the disciples always asked about for they did not understand the eternal Spiritual Kingdom after the literal reign AT Jerusalem.

Da 7:9
¶ I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Da 7:10
A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.

This is describing not the Judgment Seat of Christ before the Millenium, but the Great White Throne after it. So naturally we would see that the Kingdom is everlasting. What we see in part in Dan. 2 is further "fleshed out" in Daniel 7 as we see here.

Does that help any?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[BobRyan]

In Daniel 7 the persecuting beast power -- oppresses and persecuted the saints "UNTIL judgment is passed IN FAVOR of the saints" and when that judgment is passed THEN the saints are given the kingdom that you agree is everlasting - having no end.

So the evil persecuting power of the 4th empire identified in Daniel 7 (that everyone agrees is the pagan Roman empire at least at its start) - CONTINUES to persecute the saints for that entire time - "UNTIL" the judgment scene of Daniel 7 "passes judgment in favor of the saints".

21 ""I kept looking, and that horn was waging war with the saints and overpowering them
22 until the Ancient of Days came and judgment was passed in favor of the saints of the Highest One, and the time arrived when the saints took possession of the kingdom.
23 ""Thus he said: "The fourth beast will be a fourth kingdom on the earth, which will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth and tread it down and crush it.
24 "As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings will arise; and another will arise after them, and he will be different from the previous ones and will subdue three kings.

25 "He will speak out against the Most High and wear down the saints of the Highest One, and he will intend to make alterations in times and in law; and they will be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time.
26 "But the court will sit for judgment, and his dominion will be taken away, annihilated and destroyed forever.
27 "Then the sovereignty, the dominion and the greatness of all the kingdoms under the whole heaven will be given to the people of the saints of the Highest One; His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all the dominions will serve and obey Him.'

You have admitted that this kingdom that Christ sets up after that evil persecuting power ends (and end that comes with judgment passed in favor of the saints) -- is an eternal kingdom.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[av1611jim]

Bob;
What you are failing to understand concerning my position is the duality of the Kingdom of God. Sctrictly speaking it is a Kingdom which has no beginning nor end since God is eternally King of all. But we are NOT speaking of the eternality of His Kingdom. It is a Kingdom of a definite period of time as defined by the passage in Revelation.

Let's not put all our eggs into one basket here. Did you not look at Zech. 14? It is pretty tough to get a Kingdom of only a spiritual nature out of that passage. Let's take all of Scripture and see what we can find shall we?

I know you lean toward SDA eschatology. Though I am not fluent with it, I am nevertheless familiar with some of its interpretations and leanings on Dan. and Rev. but those are only two of the very many other prophesies about the coming Kingdom.

Let's not get to hung up on our pets, ok? That was my problem for many years. While I was WWCoG, I thought I had it all right. Then I was SDA and before those I was UPC. For the last several years I was very dispensational. But that, too, has had to be abandoned in favor of Scriptural facts.

Yes I did admit the Kingdom Christ sets up is eternal, in the sense that it will never be followed by man. The judgement you refer to is the Judgment Seat of Christ (Rom. 14:10 and 2 Cor. 5:10) and is NOT the Great White Throne (Rev 20:11). The Great White Throne judgment is AFTER God has destroyed this earth and heaven (2 Pet. 3:11-13)in preparation to creating a New Heaven and Earth (Rev. 21:1). And the fact that 1000 years comes to an end and Christ delivers up the Kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-28) should not blind you to the fact that it DOES come to an end, temporally speaking. For shortly after that Kingdom age, God will destroy this earth and create a new heaven and new earth. You know this, I need not teach you these basic facts. One can readily see that the eternal Kingdom of Christ is not limited to time. But the Millenial Kingdom IS. It is a literal Kingdom IN Jerusalem, and ALL nations will come to Jerusalem to worship as Zechariah 14 tells us. But THAT age does come to an end as we see more fully revealed in Revelation when Satan is loosed for a little season to deceive the NATIONS. If Christ's (earthly) Kingdom is NOT limited to the 1000 years, then why the release of Satan? As the passage in 1 Cor. 15 tells us Christ must rule UNTIL all enemies are destroyed. The LAST enemy is Satan. He is destroyed at the END of the 1000 year reign of Christ on THIS earth.

By the way;
NOT everyone agrees that the 4th evil empire is Roman. I happen to believe it is Babylonian in nature just as we are told in numerous places it is. And that Babylonian nature is none other than Jerusalem, which stoned the prophets and the blood of the saints flows in it. It is none other than Jerusalem which God has judged all throughout history for its idolatry, harlotry, blasphemy, and persecution of His people. Look at Daniel again. It is Babylonian world empires which the image is about. Not Roman. All three parts of that image were forms of Babylon and they ALL ruled from Babylon. Babylonians, Greeks, and Medes-Persians all ruled from Babylon, and one day the coming A/C will also rule there. Babylon, though figurative in many places, WILL rise again. Do a search sometime comparing how God describes Jerusalem with Babylon. The Roman Church/State are non-entities as far as prophecy is concerned.

Want more?

In HIS service;
Jim

 

[BobRyan]

Jim - Sorry I did not see this response in all the Catholic threads I have been looking at lately.

Jim said --
And the fact that 1000 years comes to an end and Christ delivers up the Kingdom to the Father (1 Cor. 15:24-28) should not blind you to the fact that it DOES come to an end, temporally speaking. For shortly after that Kingdom age, God will destroy this earth and create a new heaven and new earth. You know this, I need not teach you these basic facts.

In Daniel 2 the wicked kingdoms of this world rule until Christ sets up his kingdom without end - by first destroying all of man's kingdoms.

In Daniel 7 the wicked oppressive force of the 4th empire continues to persecute God's people "until judgment is passed in favor of th saints" at which time Christ sets up His eternal kingdom.

It appears that this kingdom has no end and that it starts as soon as Christ wipes out the kingdoms of wicked men.

Given that view - then when Christ said that those who refused to follow His Word -- would not enter into the Kingdom - that has to be eternally "devastating" to say the least.

I agree that Zech 14 (and Zech 9 speaking of the first coming of Christ) have challenging "details" to be considered. But if we agree that the first coming happened as the Gospels describe (missing some fo the Zech 9 details) then I think we can see in the same way that Zech 14 is also changed due to the fact that Zech 9 and 14 were designed for a faithful-Israel that accepted its Messiah.

If the rapture event of 1Thess 4 happens at the first resurrection (Rev 20:4-5) then there is 1000 years between our being raptured up to heaven to be with Christ -- and our return to earth.

In that case - all the "Desolate earth" prophecies of the OT with "destroyed cities on earth" and "no mankind" will be the condition of earth for 1000 years.

Christ's rule begins with the Rev 19 feast of the birds and utter destruction of wicked kingdoms of men.

The Bible (as we see in Dan 2 and 7) does not segement Christ's kindgom so that "one kingdom ends" and "Another begins" after the 1000 years.

There is no mention of the end of Christ's kingdom or even "several different kingdoms" for Christ.

Jim said --
One can readily see that the eternal Kingdom of Christ is not limited to time. But the Millenial Kingdom IS. It is a literal Kingdom IN Jerusalem, and ALL nations will come to Jerusalem to worship as Zechariah 14 tells us.

The same problem exists for Zech 9 (first kingdom) as the Zech 14 (post-millenium)

There is no "fix" for the Zech 9 description of the first coming of Christ since we already know the difference between Zech 9 and what actually happened. Zech was clearly looking at a future where the Jews were to be faithful to the Messiah. But they were not.

Jim said --
If Christ's (earthly) Kingdom is NOT limited to the 1000 years, then why the release of Satan?

A good question - but the question does not constitute a Biblical statement saying "Christ's kingdom has ended".

However - I will grant you that if we did not have the utter destruction of mankind in Rev 19... if instead earth continued on it its present form and then Satan was put back on it to rule - it would appear that Christ's reign had ended on earth.

Jim
As the passage in 1 Cor. 15 tells us Christ must rule UNTIL all enemies are destroyed. The LAST enemy is Satan. He is destroyed at the END of the 1000 year reign of Christ on THIS earth.

That argument is clearly an argument for Christ's kingdom ending altogether. It is an argument from inference not an explicit statement in the text.

And we know from Daniel 2 and 7 "explicit" statementa that in fact Christ's kingdom never ends.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Jim said --
By the way;
NOT everyone agrees that the 4th evil empire is Roman. I happen to believe it is Babylonian in nature just as we are told in numerous places it is. And that Babylonian nature is none other than Jerusalem, which stoned the prophets and the blood of the saints flows in it.

The first 3 empires (that conquer Israel) are shown in the text to be "Babylon" (Dan 2), "Medo-Persia" (Dan 8), "Greece" (Dan 8). Those points are not subject to change. World history already tells us what kingdom came into power after Greece and dominated that same Empire (only to a much greater extent even than the Greeks).

Describing Israel as the great crushing power in Europe that arises after the Greek empire- would not fly in any World History that I am aware of...

I think it is clear that Rome follows Greece. I don't see how it is possible to ignore that fact of history.

Jim --
It is none other than Jerusalem which God has judged all throughout history for its idolatry, harlotry, blasphemy, and persecution of His people.

Interesting. The subjugated conquered people of Israel that START OUT conquered with the Babylonian empire (first metal of Dan 2 and first beast of Dan 7) and REMAIN conquered and subjected the entire time - are the GREAT BEAST that ARISES from the Greek empire??

I think not.

I think they "remain subjugated" all through the Greek AND Roman empire and get WIPED OUT as part of the Roman Empire to the point that it was "illegal" for a Jew to even LIVE in Israel for 500 YEARS!

A more devastating extermination could hardly be realized for any nation or peoples!!

Jim said
Look at Daniel again. It is Babylonian world empires which the image is about. Not Roman.

Huh??

In Daniel 2 we have 4 world empires and then the Kingdom of Christ setup that first WIPES OUT all world empires.

WE are told in Daniel 2 that the Babylonian empire is the current/first one.

We are told in Daniel 2 that after the 4th metal (4th empire) all attempts to re-unite the empire through marriage will fail until the Kingdom of Christ is setup.

In Daniel 7 we see again - FOUR world empires with the 4th one spitting into 10 segments.

In Daniel 8 we see "Medo-Persia" and "Greece" NAMED in the vision. We know these are the TWO world empires that follow Babylon.

It is not a "guess" that the book of Daniel is sequencing through those world empires - the book "names them".

So when we get to the 4th - it is pretty easy to see. The NIV study Bible sees it - as does every study Bible I am aware of - that was done by a translating and study group composed of scholars from multiple denominational groups.

Jim
All three parts of that image were forms of Babylon and they ALL ruled from Babylon. Babylonians, Greeks, and Medes-Persians all ruled from Babylon, and one day the coming A/C will also rule there.

The book says nothing about their seat of power - it simply observes that the world empires existed. It is hard to insist that Greece is not a world empire - or that it is "really Babylon".

Certainly neither Israel NOR Rome "ruled from the city of Babylon" after Greece fell.

Your view goes to the point of Greece and then stops seeing world history (about 160 BC) and completely misses 2000 years of Christian history.

True?

Jim
Babylon, though figurative in many places, WILL rise again.

Actually - God predicts that the literal Babylon will never be rebuilt - never rise again. Saddam was trying to do that very thing - he was doomed before he got started.

In fact one could argue that any atheist or evolutionist that wanted to disprove the Bible - only has to rebuild the city of Babylon to make their case.

If we let the natural flow of history be shown in the vision of Daniel 2 and 7 -- then in fact God DID see the dark ages and the persecution of the saints and fully predicted it!

In fact - the Roman empire "time" is KEY to the Dan 8 and 9 prophecy that includes the prediction of the coming of Christ and His death DURING the Roman Empire!

There is just no way to get the Roman Empire out of Daniel or out of history.

Jim
Want more?

Sure.

IN Christ,

Bob

 

[av1611jim]

Bob;
Many men much more capable than I have written volumes explaining this view. I simply posted my view as a clarifyer to illustrate that there is more than one view as to the identity of "Babylon" and "That Great Harlot" in the books of Revelation and Daniel. To go into it here would literally take volumes of bandwidth. I am not "chickening out" but I am bowing out since this subject is not the subject of this thread. If you are interested in other views concerning this, I will supply you with some sources for resource aquisition. (Not that I expect you to change your view but simply FYI.)

The subject remember, is "Faith and Works" not "Who is the Harlot of Revelation" or "Who is the last great empire". So, with your permission, I will pass on this subject for now and continue on the subject of the thread, OK?

I will post a reply to your comments about the coming Kingdom and how it relates to faith AND works later on this day or this week.

In HIS service;
Jim