Faith and Works

[billwald]

>I meant the works of sacrifice and circumcism not the Commandments

Please list the exhaustive commandments to which you refer.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Billwald: Please list the exhaustive commandments to which you refer.

HP: I take it you are asking Brother Bob, but may I ask you a question anyway? Why would there need to be any ‘exhaustive’ list? Are not all the commandments wrapped into just two? “Lu 10:27 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” Doesn’t that sum it up nicely?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

2BHizown: We do not achieve salvation by works. 'Works' is doing something.[

Faith is a gift from God! When received the presence of this gift is demonstrated by works. As James said "I'll show you my faith BY my works" The works are the out pouring evidence of the faith!

HP: Can you achieve salvation apart from exercising faith, belief, and repentance? Why is faith, belief, and repentance you not ‘doing something?’

The issue about whether or not works is involved in achieving salvation is not about ‘doing something’ or not, but rather it is about the sense in which the ‘doing’ is understood. If works is involved in salvation, it is never thought of in the sense of ‘that for the sake of,’ for there is nothing we can do to merit salvation. If works are thought of in salvation is always in the sense of ‘not without which,’ just as the illustration of the prison clarified by the prisoner being required to show remorse and repentance although neither of these attitudes ‘merited’ a pardon in any way. Works are always thought of in relationship to salvation as ‘conditions we must fulfill’ that in and of themselves have no merit, but ‘without which’ God will not offer us a pardon from sin.

 

[J. Jump]

Works are always thought of in relationship to salvation as ‘conditions we must fulfill’ that in and of themselves have no merit, but ‘without which’ God will not offer us a pardon from sin.

HP what you and others are failing to realize is that it doesn't matter how much you dress up works with human words and human wisdom the fact of the matter is that salvation comes by faith alone by the grace of God alone.

You are saying that every saved person is going to do good works and the Bible just does not present that picture, so evyerone that doesn't have good works in your view would be unsaved, so salvation is directly tied to their works and whether they have them or not. That is works based salvation no matter how you talk about it.

If grace then no works before, during or after enter the picture. They can't because then it's not grace, but wages. That's what Paul tells us in Romans.

Grace is God doing for man what He requires of man and then giving man credit for it.

In your view grace is God giving man credit for doing what man is supposed to do while they also believe in Jesus. That just doesn't mesh.

It doesn't mesh and Scripture doesn't support it. But why there are so many people that continue to say I don't believe in works, but then espouse a works based salvation is beyond me. It's as if you all think if you say it enough times or you type it enough times that somehow grace will turn into works. But grace is grace and works is works. The only works invovled in grace are Christ's works alone. That's it.

Saved man is not even guaranteed to produce good works. Ephesians 2:10 says we SHOULD do good works, but it's possible that we won't. There are several parables that say there are going to be Christians that stand at the judgment seat of Christ and don't have a single good work to their name, but yet they are saved, becuase their salvation didn't rely on their works, but on the works of Another that were done on their behalf.

 

[billwald]

HP: I take it you are asking Brother Bob, but may I ask you a question anyway? Why would there need to be any ‘exhaustive’ list? Are not all the commandments wrapped into just two? “Lu 10:27 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” Doesn’t that sum it up nicely?


Sufficiently for you and me. Not for people who refer to the "Ten Commandments."

The Heidelberg Confession has a nice twist. It claims we obey the 10 from thankfulness, not from obligation. <G>

 

[Brother Bob]

"5":
1 Timothy, chapter 1
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

"6": From which some having swerved have turned aside unto vain jangling;

"7": Desiring to be teachers of the law; understanding neither what they say, nor whereof they affirm.

"8": But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

"9": Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

"10": For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

"11": According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.


Matthew, chapter 22

"40": On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

If it says on these two hang all the law then it would be hard to get away from the ten wouldn't it. Example, how could a man love his neighbor and covet his wife, steal from him, lie to him or to God. I have always wondered which Commandment could someone be breaking and go to Heaven unless forgiven, but after being on BB, I have learned there are a lot of beliefs on here that Christians can do the same things that the world does and I just do not believe that in a minute, but that is between me and my God.

Romans, chapter 7
"9": For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The Commandments slew Paul while he was still in his sins and to be made free it took Jesus Christ. Paul tells us what Commandments by describing "thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not bear false witness, etc.

The Commandments are still in force but for the sinner and ungodly so that sin may appear as sin and they are in your heart and mind put there by a Spirit the inspiration of God almighty that giveth him understanding and also by "the Grace of God which bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men teaching him that denying ungodliness, etc and to to that it would have to teach him what ungodliness is. The only way to be free from them is through the blood of Christ and then you are kept by the power of God. You could post all the laws in the world and if you do not commit those things then you are free from them. Example, "drunk drivers go to jail", well I don't drink so what does that law have to do with me? I hope this explains my position on the law for I believe it to be the same as Paul's. blessings

 

[BobRyan]

"sin" is defined - for both the lost sinner and the saint as we see in 1Cor 6 and in James 2.

The "Law" is still in place "defining sin"

Clearly Paul is “speaking to the shame of the Christians in Corinth”. He accuses them of defrauding the saints – defrauding each other. He claims they are not wise enough – mature enough – righteous enough to settle their own disputes. The focus of Paul’s argument is FAR from “Have no worries, trouble not your heart – there is nothing here to really worry about”.

The entire focus of this chapter is to “get their attention” warn them of danger. Judge them as being in error and demand that they return to a right course of action.

This point is incredibly obvious. It is the context, purpose, focus for the chapter and the following warning Paul gives – is given to demonstrate” the severity of the problem. He is not “changing subjects” or coming up with a “comforting thought”.

1 Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Paul appeals to the fact that a life of rebellion does NOT result in the inheritance of eternal life! This is the way he chooses to highlight his point about their needing to repent of the sin he has just charged them with.

Then Paul gets to an even more dangerous warning “do not be deceived”. He claims that they are either deceiving themselves or being deceived by someone else into thinking that they CAN engage in such acts of rebellion and STILL inherit eternal life. Indeed many today fall into that same trap – arguing that WHILE engaged in that life they are STILL going to inherit eternal life “anyway”. As if God is trapped in some kind of lock-box and can not apply to THEM – that which HE says is applicable to ALL. But Paul tells THEM not to be deceived on this very point. The very point they ARE deceiving themselves into thinking!

Paul fully uncovers the high level of severity in that shocking condemnation by warning the church that those who practice these things “will not inherit the kingdom of heaven”. His statement is not claiming that they are already going to hell – rather he is warning them that the course they are pursuing is getting them to this same point. He is urging that they cease. He points out that to continue is to fail of our inheritance!

This is the same format that we find ALL of Paul’s warnings about failure to persevere.

 

[BobRyan]

James 2 "So live and act as those who ARE to be judged by the LAW of Liberty"

"IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments" -- John 14 -- the pre-cross teaching of Christ the continues in the NT -- all throughout.

 

[Brother Bob]

For sure Bob they are still there but by the blood we fulfill the righteousness of the law. By the Holy Ghost being shed abroad in our hearts we walk upright before God. I believe in a Christian whose steps are ordered of the Lord.

 

[BobRyan]

Romans, chapter 7
"9": For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

The Commandments slew Paul while he was still in his sins and to be made free it took Jesus Christ.

In Romans 7 Paul says "he is in agreement with the Law of God" in the inner man.

In Romans 3 Paul says this is not possible for the lost soul - who is apart from Christ.

In Romans 7 Paul says the Law is spiritual and that HE WANTS to keep it. He says there is a LAW of his mind that is at war AGAINST the LAW in his flesh.

This is the sign of the born again believer upon whose heart is written the Law of God. Only for the one born again can such a conflict be raging.

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 7

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin[b/] except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "" YOU SHALL NOT COVET.''

Paul gives us an Excellent reminder - SIN is STILL something for “God alone” to define and He did this with His Law. Specifically we see the “Law” being a quote from the Spoken Word of GOD Himself. The Ten Commandments!

Paul does not hesitate to point out that the perfect example of God’s Law is a quote from the Ten Commandments!

Rom 7
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.
9 I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died;
10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;

To understand this - real Phil 3:6 where Paul describe his spiritually dead state causing him to think that we was "found blameless". But when made spiritually alive - he realized the full scope of the law's demands and saw that he was condemned by it as FLAWED - a sinner condemned to death. As Paul points out in Romans 8:5-8 the carnal mind does not submit itself to God's perfect Law - it is not even able to do so.

He makes the point that God's perfect LAW which should result in life as stated "obey and live" - ACTUALLY results in death for us until we enter the Romans 8:1-4 relationship with Christ - resulting in "no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus".

Rom 7
11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.
12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Notice - Paul CONTINUES - even now - to say that God's perfect LAW still IS Holy, righteous and GOOD.

Rom 7

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

Here we see that the Law IS spiritual but the sinful nature of man is in bondage to sin. Bondage already fully discussed in Romans 6.

Some have tried to rewrite this text as if God's perfect law IS NOT spiritual but carnal and once we become spiritual we dump that bad-ol'-law. Paul makes the OPPOSITE point here and in Romans 3:31 where he affirms that BY FAITH we "ESTABLISH the LAW".

Rom 7
15 For what I am doing, I do not understand; for I am not practicing what I would like to do, but I am doing the very thing I hate.
16 But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good.
17 So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

Paul says he “wants to obey” God’s Law and in fact “Agrees with it” saying that “it is GOOD”. He points out that only “sin IN him” argues against God’s Law.

What a great contrast to those who boldly fight against God’s Law today insisting that they do NOT agree with it and daily deriding those who DO agree with it!

When we compare this with the statement Paul makes in Romans 8:5-8 [ about the wicked, carnal, fleshly mind not being ABLE to even agree with God's Law much less submit to it - (for as 1Cor 2:14 says "spiritual things are spiritually discerned" there for the natural-carnal mind does not even "accept the things of the spirit).] - we see that Paul is AGREEING with the LAW - and so is transformed - a new creation, old things are passed away.

Rom 7
18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.
19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I practice the very evil that I do not want.
20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.
21 I find then the principle that evil is present in me, the one who wants to do good.
22 For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man,

First of all those who war against the Law of God – the Ten Commandments “do NOT joyfully concur with the Law of God”
Second Paul identifies that part of humanity that seeks to wage war against the Law of God that is “Holy Just and good” - - he says it is the sinful nature that is waging war against God’s Law! How “instructive”.

When it comes to his OWN testimony Paul points out that IN CHRIST - he has come to AGREE JOYFULLY with the perfect spiritual Law of God. Transformed in the "inner man". This is consistent with His statement that faith is to “establish the Law of God not abolish it” Rom 3:31.

Rom 7
23 but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members.
24 Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death?
25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the Law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin.

Again Paul makes the point - NOT ONLY JOYFULLY concurring with God's perfect Law - but in the inner man - in his mind - SERVING the perfect law of God. And then we find the first crisis for the new christian - what happens when the inner man IS transformed to AGREE with the SPIRITUAL, PERFECT LAW of God - and THEN finds the SINFUL nature at WAR with the "new creation"? Thankfully we have the WAR that is waged successfuly throughout our life- - by infinite God the Holy Spirit - as pointed out in Romans 8.

 

[BobRyan]

The NT is filled with instruction for the saints to KEEP God's commandments.

 

[Brother Bob]

What you just posted is what I said when I spoke of the Law "drunk drivers go to jail" having no effect on me. The same is true of the Commandments for the Law of: "thou shalt not commit adultery" has no effect on me because I don't commit adultery, in other words the righteousness of that law is fulfilled in me because I don't commit adultery.

 

[Brother Bob]

The reason Paul said they were for the sinner and ungodly is because that is who is breaking those commandments. Again, the reason we are free is we just don't break them. If we don't break them then we are keeping them Bob.

 

[BobRyan]

What you just posted is what I said when I spoke of the Law "drunk drivers go to jail" having no effect on me. The same is true of the Commandments for the Law of: "thou shalt not commit adultery" has no effect on me because I don't commit adultery, in other words the righteousness of that law is fulfilled in me because I don't commit adultery.

It is true that the condemnation of the Law does not rest on the saints (either in the NT or the OT) because we are covered by the blood of Chrsit for past sins AND we walk as Christ walked - in the new creation, having been born again.

And yet -- if we do sin - we have an advocate with the Father. So while the saints are those in harmony with God's Word - His Law and the wicked are those in rebellion against it -- yet the Law exists for both.

It condemns the wicked and points out their need of a savior. And to the righteous it acts as a perfect "mirror" according to James.

 

[BobRyan]

HP: I take it you are asking Brother Bob, but may I ask you a question anyway? Why would there need to be any ‘exhaustive’ list? Are not all the commandments wrapped into just two? “Lu 10:27 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.” Doesn’t that sum it up nicely?


Sufficiently for you and me. Not for people who refer to the "Ten Commandments."

The Heidelberg Confession has a nice twist. It claims we obey the 10 from thankfulness, not from obligation. <G>

Christ said "IF you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" (pre-cross) and in the NT the "SAINTS" are said to be those that "keep the commandments of God".

The two commandments found in the Mosaic law that you metion above - AND that are quoted Pre-CROSS in Luke are

Lev 19:18 "Love your Neighbor as yourself"
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart".

This is the WORD of God! No way to "abolish it".

They could not read Deut 6:5 and then burn the rest of their Bibles in the OT - and neither can we.