Faith is the result of Election !

[Silverhair]

Who decides whether our faith will result in election, the person professing faith or God? What does God crediting our faith as righteousness accomplish, if He saves those with unrighteous faith?

@Van you will have to give me examples of someone with your "unrighteous faith" The bible is clear how one is saved
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

 

[JD731]

I would not go so far as you have in your condemnation of the Calvinist view. While I do not agree with a number of their views I would still call them my Christian brother or sister.

That sounds good but what we believe about the person and work of Jesus Christ for sinners is the determining factor of our salvation. So what if we are right or wrong about the millennial kingdom or the rapture or a host of other doctrines? It does not determine our salvation. However what we believe about Jesus Christ and the promise of God the Father to save us through his person and work on behalf of a world of sinners is the determining factor of whether God saves us or not. There are few if any doctrines the Reformed publish that I would preach because they redefine the words of scriptures and deny plain words time after time as those words describe who can be saved from their sins and add a multitude of words and ideas that confuse the scriptures, like sovereign grace, unconditional election, the sovereignty of God in salvation, the total depravity of man making it impossible to believe the gospel that God has commanded all men everywhere to believe, and worst of all, limited atonement.

1Co 1:17 For Christ sent me not to baptize, but to preach the gospel: not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of none effect.
18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it (the preaching of the cross) is the power of God (God the Father).

The cross of Jesus Christ is the main focal point in the gospel for God but election before the cross and separate from it is the focal point of the 5 point hyper Reformed.

It is not just believing that Jesus died on the cross and was buried and rose from the dead. The Reformed believes that. But it is believing what God says to us sinners about it.

Ro 4:23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it (righteousness) was imputed to him;
24 But for us also, to whom it (righteousness) shall be imputed, if we believe on him (God the Father) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;
25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Ro 3:26 To declare, I say, at this time his (God the Father's) righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

God the Father of Jesus Christ will justify all sinners who come to him in the name of Jesus Christ, owning their sins and believing and trusting in him and what God has testified in his word about him being his only remedy for the sins of the whole word, without exception.

So my opinion is that Reformed believers have a doctrine of Jesus but not according to what God says about him.

 

[Van]

@Van you will have to give me examples of someone with your "unrighteous faith" The bible is clear how one is saved
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith,

Heb_11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I do not think you are trying very hard to grasp the biblical viewpoint presented.

If God does not credit a person's faith as righteousness, it is (by logical necessity) unrighteous.

I do not think you are denying some profess faith, but their "faith" is lacking. For example, Matthew 13 and soils two and three. Soil Two received the gospel with joy, but their faith was not a deeply rooted commitment. Soil Three trusted in the gospel, but Christ became one of several priorities, rather than their overriding priority. Then we have Matthew 7, and folks declaring "Lord, Lord" but they had not made Christ the Lord of their life as they practiced evildoing. Lastly we have Judas who professed faith, but was a non-believer from the first.(Luke 9:1-2)

Ephesians 2:8, For by (God's) grace you have been saved through (God credited) faith.

Hebrews 11:6, But without faith (as determined by God) it is impossible to please Him.

Let us consider a description of Abraham's faith: (from Romans 4)

Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. ​

Now is the faith of only Abraham the limit of God's discernment and crediting as righteousness? Nope.

Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, ​

Thus God credits the faith (based on His knowledge, for He knows our hearts) of those He determines actually "believe in Him."

 

[Silverhair]

I do not think you are trying very hard to grasp the biblical viewpoint presented.

If God does not credit a person's faith as righteousness, it is (by logical necessity) unrighteous.

I do not think you are denying some profess faith, but their "faith" is lacking. For example, Matthew 13 and soils two and three. Soil Two received the gospel with joy, but their faith was not a deeply rooted commitment. Soil Three trusted in the gospel, but Christ became one of several priorities, rather than their overriding priority. Then we have Matthew 7, and folks declaring "Lord, Lord" but they had not made Christ the Lord of their life as they practiced evildoing. Lastly we have Judas who professed faith, but was a non-believer from the first.(Luke 9:1-2)

Ephesians 2:8, For by (God's) grace you have been saved through (God credited) faith.

Hebrews 11:6, But without faith (as determined by God) it is impossible to please Him.

Let us consider a description of Abraham's faith: (from Romans 4)

Without becoming weak in faith he contemplated his own body, now as good as dead since he was about a hundred years old, and the deadness of Sarah’s womb; yet, with respect to the promise of God, he did not waver in unbelief but grew strong in faith, giving glory to God, and being fully assured that what God had promised, He was able also to perform. ​

Now is the faith of only Abraham the limit of God's discernment and crediting as righteousness? Nope.

Now not for his sake only was it written that it was credited to him, but for our sake also, to whom it will be credited, to us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead, ​

Thus God credits the faith (based on His knowledge, for He knows our hearts) of those He determines actually "believe in Him."

Oh I understand what you are trying to present, you just did not do a good job of presenting it.

No one has righteous faith or unrighteous faith for that matter. Rom 4:5 "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness," The believer is accounted as righteous because he believes. He is viewed as righteous not his faith.

You make a comment that you say is logical but actually your view does not hold. Where are your examples of people that have this "unrighteous faith".

What is the condition for salvation? Faith in the risen Christ. How does one trust in the risen Christ with "unrighteous faith"? If you believe it is faith, if you do not believe it is not faith of any kind.

As for soils 2 & 3 it does not say they did not believe it shows they did not have depth of faith. Big difference.

It seems you are making the assumption that once a person trusts in Christ they will never fall away. Life shows that is a errant view.

 

[Brightfame52]

Here is how God's testimony laid out in the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:13

But we should always give thanks to God for you, brothers and sisters beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.​

1) To what does "from the beginning" refer? Calvinist claim it refers to our individual election before the foundation of the world. Ephesians 1:4. However since no one was transferred into Christ spiritually before He physically died on the cross, this view is bogus. Note we all lived without mercy so we were not elected during the first part of our physical life.

2) We are individually chosen "through" or by means of " faith in the truth, so during our physical lifetime after we trust fully in Christ.

3) Through sanctification refers to being set apart in Christ. Thus our individual election under the New Covenant did not occur before Christ became our means of salvation on the cross.

4) "he called (invited) you through (or by means of) His gospel. Thus again requiring our hearing the gospel during our lifetime.

5) Faith is not the cause of our election, but rather God crediting our faith as righteousness that is the cause of our election.

Faith is the result of election.

 

[Brightfame52]

Context BF context. You are reading into the text what you want to find. But that seems to be quite common among Calvinists.

I can understand why you are afraid of context as it shows you the error of your theology. The bible is not a book of on e liners as calvinists like to treat it.

By your method you can make the bible say just about anything you want it to say. So it is not the bible you believe but yourself. It is really sad when you have so little regard for the inspired Word of God that you think you can change it at will.

Only those chosen to eternal life will believe

 

[Brightfame52]

BF again you ignore context. As long as you continue along that line you will never understand the inspired Word of God.

Your continued abuse of His word shows that you are ashamed of His word. If you had any regard for it you would not twist it the way you do.

Why did you not answer my question BF? Afraid of the truth?
Let's try again.

Can God create a world where humans sometimes experience LFW and yet God foreknows every future event that will occur?

As shown faith is the result of election. If one is not elect they will not be given faith to believe.

 

[DaveXR650]

God the Father of Jesus Christ will justify all sinners who come to him in the name of Jesus Christ, owning their sins and believing and trusting in him and what God has testified in his word about him being his only remedy for the sins of the whole word, without exception.

So my opinion is that Reformed believers have a doctrine of Jesus but not according to what God says about him.

I admit that a lot of Reformed guys do a fine job of mucking everything up as you see on this board but I wonder if you have actually read what Reformed preachers really said. Compare Matthew Henry's commentary from Matthew chapter 7 to what you just said above:
"It is true, we can neither go in, nor go on, without the assistance of divine grace; but it is as true, that grace is freely offered, and shall not be wanting to those that seek it, and submit to it. Conversion is hard work, but it is needful, and, blessed be God, it is not impossible if we strive, Luke 13:24."
My point is simply that what you said above is true, and also it is found in nearly every reformed preacher's writings. Don't miss out on the blessings you can get from these guys because of the fact that some indeed overdo it on the theological reasoning.

2Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

I don't know why you quoted this because it was the very reason I became interested in "Reformed" theology. We noticed serious opposition to the idea of examining yourself from non-reformed, people who believed that once you said the prayer you were in, no matter how you lived. I don't really care much about the logical games we do regarding theology but if you are serious I would be careful about disregarding all Reformed writing just because of disagreements in some areas.

 

[Van]

Oh I understand what you are trying to present, you just did not do a good job of presenting it.

No one has righteous faith or unrighteous faith for that matter. Rom 4:5 "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness," The believer is accounted as righteous because he believes. He is viewed as righteous not his faith.

You make a comment that you say is logical but actually your view does not hold. Where are your examples of people that have this "unrighteous faith".

What is the condition for salvation? Faith in the risen Christ. How does one trust in the risen Christ with "unrighteous faith"? If you believe it is faith, if you do not believe it is not faith of any kind.

As for soils 2 & 3 it does not say they did not believe it shows they did not have depth of faith. Big difference.

It seems you are making the assumption that once a person trusts in Christ they will never fall away. Life shows that is a errant view.

No the believer is NOT accounted for as righteous. His or her faith is credited or deemed righteous.

Sir, please quote me, rather than rewrite what I post. I did not say my comment or view of God determining whose faith will result in salvation is logical. I said if God credits the faith as some as righteousness, then by logical necessity, the faith of those not credited is unrighteous. I gave examples of faith that did not result in salvation, Soils 2 and 3, the faith of those proclaiming Lord, Lord in Matthew 7, and the faith of Judas expressed in Luke 9.

Salvation does not depend upon us proclaiming our faith, but on God who credits our faith, or not, as righteousness. Pretty simple concept.

The issue with Soils 2 and 3 is that they were not chosen and set apart in Christ, as indicated by their "falling away" when the going got difficult or their faith was rendered ineffectual by the affairs of the world.

 

[Van]

Faith is the result of election.

Since we are elected individually through or by means of faith, the above claim is false.

 

[Brightfame52]

Since we are elected individually through or by means of faith, the above claim is false.

Election took place before we existed

 

[Silverhair]

Faith is the result of election.

You keep saying the same thing over and over but you provide not scripture to support your view so we can only conclude you are delusional.

 

[Silverhair]

Only those chosen to eternal life will believe

Based on what scripture BF. This is just a theory if you can not provide any proof.

 

[Silverhair]

As shown faith is the result of election. If one is not elect they will not be given faith to believe.

Where is your biblical support BF?

Why did you not answer my question BF? Afraid of the truth?
Let's try again.

Can God create a world where humans sometimes experience LFW and yet God foreknows every future event that will occur?

All we see from you is the same old unsupported claims.

 

[Brightfame52]

You keep saying the same thing over and over but you provide not scripture to support your view so we can only conclude you are delusional.

It's true over and over

 

[Brightfame52]

Based on what scripture BF. This is just a theory if you can not provide any proof.

The scripture I have provided

 

[Brightfame52]

Where is your biblical support BF?

Why did you not answer my question BF? Afraid of the truth?
Let's try again.

Can God create a world where humans sometimes experience LFW and yet God foreknows every future event that will occur?

All we see from you is the same old unsupported claims.

I provided the scripture

 

[Silverhair]

No the believer is NOT accounted for as righteous. His or her faith is credited or deemed righteous.

Sir, please quote me, rather than rewrite what I post. I did not say my comment or view of God determining whose faith will result in salvation is logical. I said if God credits the faith as some as righteousness, then by logical necessity, the faith of those not credited is unrighteous. I gave examples of faith that did not result in salvation, Soils 2 and 3, the faith of those proclaiming Lord, Lord in Matthew 7, and the faith of Judas expressed in Luke 9.

Salvation does not depend upon us proclaiming our faith, but on God who credits our faith, or not, as righteousness. Pretty simple concept.

The issue with Soils 2 and 3 is that they were not chosen and set apart in Christ, as indicated by their "falling away" when the going got difficult or their faith was rendered ineffectual by the affairs of the world.

@Van faith can be neither righteous nor unrighteous.

In Christianity faith is trust in, loyalty and or commitment to the risen Son of God. The person that expresses such is accounted as righteous because they believe. Faith is the reason they are accounted as righteous.

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

Rom 4:5 "But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness," The believer is accounted as righteous because he believes.Van your logic is flawed, the person not their faith is what is accounted as righteous.

As for soils 2 & 3 it does not say they did not believe it shows they did not have depth of faith. Big difference.

It seems you are making the assumption that once a person trusts in Christ they will never fall away. Is that a correct understanding of your position?

 

[Silverhair]

The scripture I have provided

the scripture you provided does not support your position BF.

 

[Silverhair]

I provided the scripture

So now that I have asked you three times to answer this question, perhaps you can stop avoiding it and answer it.

Let's try again.
BF are you unable to answer the question or are you just afraid of the truth?

Can God create a world where humans sometimes experience LFW and yet God foreknows every future event that will occur?