Faith plus 'Works'. Do we have it Right?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Moriah: There are so many things that we can do to obey Jesus to be saved…things that will show God how serious we are. God says search for me with all your heart, mind, and soul. That is something God tells us to do! Jesus says those who love me will get my teachings and obey them, then the Father and he will make their home with him, and Jesus will reveal himself to him.
That is something for us to do. We are to confess our sins.

HP: So very true my friend. We are called on to do many things as you say, all of which involving acts of the will, 'works' in their most primitive state, yet not one work on our part has the least merit to it in regards to gaining salvtion....yet without which no one will be saved.

You are absolutely right about confessing our sins, again, without which no one shall be saved. We both know we do not serve a taskmaster, as DHK paints God, demanding us to do the impossible. What we are commanded to do and must do to inherit the hope of eternal life is to confess all known sins. If God desires to bring to our minds sins of the past that have in reality been forgotten, He is well able to do that, and THEN it is our job to confess and forsake them as they are brought to our attention.

I remember well a time in my Christian life where it seemed I just could not get through to God in my prayers. I did not know how to get past this period, so I got out a piece of paper and a pencil and got on my knees and asked God to reveal to me that which was hindering my prayer life and my walk with Him. I told God that when He reminded me of things I should do or confess and forsake I would do them. It was not long before I had several things on my list, restitution being some of them. Of course the enemy of my soul told me that if I carried out these restitutions etc. that I was finished in my business, and that I would loose the jobs I had. I gave it all to God and got up from my knees with a clear conscience once again and the light of heaven burning in my soul.

To make a long story short, God went before me and gave me grace in the sight of everyone I went to in order to make restitution. I never lost a job! I can only say, praise God for the help He proffers when we not only confess but are willing to do what He commands us to do.

One of the greatest hindrances to ones Christian walk lies in the area of restitution. When was the last time you heard a message on that?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

It is NOT faith + works, but rather it should be denoted as 'works of faith.'

 

[The Biblicist]

It is NOT faith + works, but rather it should be denoted as 'works of faith.'

You simply have the cart in front of the horse. Ephesians 2:8-10 places the cart behind the horse. We are first saved (v.8) which includes regenerative justifyng/saving faith (v. 8) thus "created in Christ Jesus UNTO" works of faith.

You guys simply cannot rightly distinguish justifying faith from works of faith. Justifying faith is spelled out in Ephesians 2:8-9 which is WITHOUT WORKS not WITH works. Works of faith or works produced by faith or works the fruit of faith is spelled out in Ephesians 2:10 as a product of first being "created in Christ Jesus UNTO" works/fruit produced by faith.

You are preaching/teaching the gospel which Paul says those who do are "accursed" - Gal. 1:6-9.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: You are preaching/teaching the gospel which Paul says those who do are "accursed" - Gal. 1:6-9.

HP: This list is like making money and getting blessed whether the market is up or down. Well, I am going to Praise God your incorrect.:thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Oh God, teach me to love even those that desire to be seen as unlovable!

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Somebody say Praise the Lord!!

 

[DHK]

HP: This list is like making money and getting blessed whether the market is up or down. Well, I am going to Praise God your incorrect.

Anyone who preaches a salvation by works, as you do, preaches a false gospel. Over and over I quote the verse:

Therefore being justified by faith we have peace with God.

What do you not understand about that verse?
Why do you want to add to the Word here?
Why do you seem to think you need to add your own vain philosophies to the Word of God at this point?

 

[The Biblicist]

Oh God, teach me to love even those that desire to be seen as unlovable!

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Somebody say Praise the Lord!!

Come out of your imaginary world! Simply pointing out a Biblical characteristic that fits does not constitute "persecution complex"! I did not make a charge without providing Biblical evidence. The Biblical evidence was pointed out in Ephesians 2:8-10 between "faith" in verse 8 which is without works (vv. 8-9) and "good works" or the product of faith in verse 10 which follows regenerative faith - "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works."

No amount of persecution complex will reverse the order given there by Paul or change the fact that those who are "accursed" for reversing that order fit that bill.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, I am in the midst of a blessing. Get back with you after I come back down. God bless you all!

 

[fortytworc]

You simply have the cart in front of the horse. Ephesians 2:8-10 places the cart behind the horse. We are first saved (v.8) which includes regenerative justifyng/saving faith (v. 8) thus "created in Christ Jesus UNTO" works of faith.

You guys simply cannot rightly distinguish justifying faith from works of faith. Justifying faith is spelled out in Ephesians 2:8-9 which is WITHOUT WORKS not WITH works. Works of faith or works produced by faith or works the fruit of faith is spelled out in Ephesians 2:10 as a product of first being "created in Christ Jesus UNTO" works/fruit produced by faith.

You are preaching/teaching the gospel which Paul says those who do are "accursed" - Gal. 1:6-9.

I know what you are saying, and they are the things I grew up believing. I tend to think a little outside the box at times though. The church atmosphere I grew up in did not allow me to ask many of the questions I would have from time to time. I am very thankful for the opportunity here on BB to present some of the 'outside the box' thoughts I get. With that in mind :
I'll try to clarify my questions and what has brought me to ask them. If I believe that: [And I do]
1.) God knows us and loves us. God wants to have us in close relationship with Him forever.
2.) There is a barrier between us and God which prevents this relationship from happening.
3.) The barrier exists because God is Holy, Pure, Righteous and Totally Clean while we are born with and into Sin which renders us incapable of living in His presence as He desires.
4.) The Very Best we can realize in Any attempt to bridge the gap between God and ourselves is miserable and utter failure.
5.) He Himself became that Way, that Bridge by taking our place on the cross and shedding His Blood, being the perfect, sinless sacrifice, the Only begotten Son of God.
6.) If there is anything we can 'Do' now to come into right relationship with Him it is to know that the answer is still 'Nothing'. He is Himself, quite apart from (and without) us the Way, the Truth, the Life. He is still Holy. We are still unholy.
7.) In order for us to experience the Life He has for us we must believe on; trust in; by grace through faith receive His free gift of eternal Life.

It is at this place some would point out that the 'DO' in "All I can do is nothing but 'Believe on' 'Trust in' 'by faith receive' appear to indeed be things I must 'DO'. This makes them a 'Work'.
If I must receive isn't that a 'do'? Isn't believed on and trust in 'things I 'do'? Aren't all 'Do's' Works?
If Paul says "not of works”: If Paul teaches a gospel of faith plus works is a false (another) gospel to be rejected, yet I must 'believe, trust in, receive' could it be our understanding of what Paul meant by 'works' is wrong?
If Paul meant Faith plus Jewish Law exclusively then what we have meant (faith plus baptism, faith plus confession) has not been the 'faith plus works' that Paul meant. If this is the case then ____ _____ [you fill in the blank] are possibly saved.
If Paul meant Faith plus any work then aren't we practicing faith plus works when we say faith (the heart) plus confess (with the mouth) unto salvation? And again are these do's any different than the ___ ___ do's?

 

[fortytworc]

HP said:
We are called on to do many things as you say, all of which involving acts of the will, 'works' in their most primitive state, yet not one work on our part has the least merit to it in regards to gaining salvation....yet without which no one will be saved. [/SIZE][/FONT]


I'm sorry, but this line of reasoning reminds me of Depok Chopra going around in circles without saying anything that resembles coherent logic.


What we are commanded to do and must do to inherit the hope of eternal life

inherit the hope??? of eternal life?
I have encountered many people over the years(Catholics, many Pentecostals, Masons, etc.) who have a hope of eternal life. Can the people of God not have any more than this?

Maybe I'm way off target, but this makes no sense to me.

 

[Moriah]

Oh God, teach me to love even those that desire to be seen as unlovable!

Mat 5:11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
Mat 5:12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.

Somebody say Praise the Lord!!

You definitely will get praise the Lord from me. Praise the Lord, praise the Lord!

 

[Moriah]

HP: So very true my friend. We are called on to do many things as you say, all of which involving acts of the will, 'works' in their most primitive state, yet not one work on our part has the least merit to it in regards to gaining salvtion....yet without which no one will be saved.

You are absolutely right about confessing our sins, again, without which no one shall be saved. We both know we do not serve a taskmaster, as DHK paints God, demanding us to do the impossible. What we are commanded to do and must do to inherit the hope of eternal life is to confess all known sins. If God desires to bring to our minds sins of the past that have in reality been forgotten, He is well able to do that, and THEN it is our job to confess and forsake them as they are brought to our attention.

I remember well a time in my Christian life where it seemed I just could not get through to God in my prayers. I did not know how to get past this period, so I got out a piece of paper and a pencil and got on my knees and asked God to reveal to me that which was hindering my prayer life and my walk with Him. I told God that when He reminded me of things I should do or confess and forsake I would do them. It was not long before I had several things on my list, restitution being some of them. Of course the enemy of my soul told me that if I carried out these restitutions etc. that I was finished in my business, and that I would loose the jobs I had. I gave it all to God and got up from my knees with a clear conscience once again and the light of heaven burning in my soul.

To make a long story short, God went before me and gave me grace in the sight of everyone I went to in order to make restitution. I never lost a job! I can only say, praise God for the help He proffers when we not only confess but are willing to do what He commands us to do.

One of the greatest hindrances to ones Christian walk lies in the area of restitution. When was the last time you heard a message on that?

I know exactly what you are explaining. Jesus says those who obey him are the ones who love him, and the Father and he will make their home with those who love him. Jesus reveals himself to those who do what he says. I am so glad you are a member of this group. You truly are a blessing.

 

[The Biblicist]

I know what you are saying, and they are the things I grew up believing. I tend to think a little outside the box at times though. The church atmosphere I grew up in did not allow me to ask many of the questions I would have from time to time. I am very thankful for the opportunity here on BB to present some of the 'outside the box' thoughts I get. With that in mind :
I'll try to clarify my questions and what has brought me to ask them. If I believe that: [And I do]
1.) God knows us and loves us. God wants to have us in close relationship with Him forever.
2.) There is a barrier between us and God which prevents this relationship from happening.
3.) The barrier exists because God is Holy, Pure, Righteous and Totally Clean while we are born with and into Sin which renders us incapable of living in His presence as He desires.
4.) The Very Best we can realize in Any attempt to bridge the gap between God and ourselves is miserable and utter failure.
5.) He Himself became that Way, that Bridge by taking our place on the cross and shedding His Blood, being the perfect, sinless sacrifice, the Only begotten Son of God.
6.) If there is anything we can 'Do' now to come into right relationship with Him it is to know that the answer is still 'Nothing'. He is Himself, quite apart from (and without) us the Way, the Truth, the Life. He is still Holy. We are still unholy.
7.) In order for us to experience the Life He has for us we must believe on; trust in; by grace through faith receive His free gift of eternal Life.

It is at this place some would point out that the 'DO' in "All I can do is nothing but 'Believe on' 'Trust in' 'by faith receive' appear to indeed be things I must 'DO'. This makes them a 'Work'.
If I must receive isn't that a 'do'? Isn't believed on and trust in 'things I 'do'? Aren't all 'Do's' Works?
If Paul says "not of works”: If Paul teaches a gospel of faith plus works is a false (another) gospel to be rejected, yet I must 'believe, trust in, receive' could it be our understanding of what Paul meant by 'works' is wrong?
If Paul meant Faith plus Jewish Law exclusively then what we have meant (faith plus baptism, faith plus confession) has not been the 'faith plus works' that Paul meant. If this is the case then ____ _____ [you fill in the blank] are possibly saved.
If Paul meant Faith plus any work then aren't we practicing faith plus works when we say faith (the heart) plus confess (with the mouth) unto salvation? And again are these do's any different than the ___ ___ do's?

The difference between justifying faith and faithfulness is that the former is passive while the latter is active. The former is passive because it is simply receiving the finished works of Christ in our behalf as the object of faith. It is this aspect of faith that is only expressed in Scripture with the preposition "in" (Rom. 3:24-26) as faith "in Christ" or faith "in His blood" etc. It is this former passive faith that justifies the ungodly (Rom. 4:5) without our works (Rom. 4:6).

It is important to note that Romans 4:1-6 concerns Abraham who lived 430 years prior to the law of Moses and therefore the term "works" cannot have any reference to the law of Moses or "the works of the law" but refers to the active responses of Abraham to God.

The passivity of faith in these contexts which is "without works" such as Romans 4:1-22 and Ephesians 2:8-9 is always attributed to God's grace (Rom. 4:4, 16; Eph. 2:8) and as the foundational cause for active works (faithfulness) on our part (Eph. 2:10; Heb. 11:7-40).

The passivity of faith is that it RECEIVES what Christ accomplished in our behalf rather than co-partners with Christ to obtain satisfaction of righteous demands of God's.

The activity of faith is that it RESPONDS to what it has received freely by grace from Christ "through" faith by works motivated by love. Love becomes the motive that activates our obedience to His commandments not in order to be justified but in order to please God. So Christ says "IF ye LOVE me then keep my commandments."

The difference between faith "in" Christ and faithfulness to Christ is the difference between cause and effect. It is the difference between what God has done for you versus what you do for God.

Hence, in Ephesians 2:8 "by grace are ye saved through faith." Saved and "through faith" cannot be separated from each other and thus it is this phrase as a whole that is "NOT OF YOURSELF for IT is a gift of God NOT OF WORKS, lest any man should boast" because justifying faith "is of grace" (Rom. 4:16; Jn. 6:44-45; 64-65) which Christ is both the author and finisher (Heb. 12:2) and thus justifying faith is "the work of God" (Jn. 6:29). Hence, justifying faith is PASSIVE in the sense that it simply RECEIVES (acknowledges and accepts) the finished works of Christ. This submission to God's redemptive gift through Christ is something the natural mindset is incapable of doing (Rom. 8:7) apart from the regenerative grace of God that comes as a creative command from God (2 Cor. 4:6) and thus in power and in the Spirit not merely by "world only" (1 Thes. 1:4-5).

Ephesians 2:10 and the phrase "created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works" refers to the ACTIVE aspect of faith or FAITHFULNESS unto God. It is the consequence of already having been "created in Christ Jesus." Being created in Christ Jesus refers in context to them being "quickened" in verse 1 and in verse 5 and to the phrase "For by grace are ye saved through faith" in verse 8.

We are PASSIVE in this aspect of our salvation because only God can "create" and what has been created had no power to co-create itself. We are PASSIVE in this aspect of salvation because only God can "quicken" and what had been quickened could not co-quicken itself.

Those who preach preach works for salvation logical must regard themselves as CO-Creator's and CO-quickeners and CO-Redeemers and thus CO-Saviors which is "another gospel" and those who preach it are to be regarded as "accursed" as it is a direct attack upon God's sole perogative as Creator, Redeemer and Savior and rejection of Christ and his FINISHED work in our behalf.

 

[Yeshua1]

salvation from start to finish is the work of the Lord!

God sent forth his Son, jesus, to die as atonement for sins commited and for the sin debt obligation owed to God...

God choses us in the beloved...

God sends forthe his Spirit to quicken/convict turning sinners to place their God granted faith unto Christ..

Spirit indwells us, and that lord jesus willone day transform us into being as he now us as regards to being without any taint of sin, receiving glorified bodies!

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: Those who preach preach works for salvation logical must regard themselves as CO-Creator's and CO-quickeners and CO-Redeemers and thus CO-Saviors which is "another gospel" and those who preach it are to be regarded as "accursed" as it is a direct attack upon God's sole perogative as Creator, Redeemer and Savior and rejection of Christ and his FINISHED work in our behalf.

Please reply to the OP or at least the post in a civil way, and not hurling personal attacks.

 

[The Biblicist]

Please reply to the OP or at least the post in a civil way, and not hurling personal attacks.

You hypocrit! Look at you said about me and others in another thread on the same subject:

Moriah, I have to admit that the willing blindness to the truth astounds me. Is it any wonder at times the prophet sat down and plucked out their very hair in utter confusion as to the rebellion and stubbornness of the human heart?

I will tell you the real problem! Just as in that thread, so in this thread when you are incapable of dealing with the Biblical evidence you always come back to making UNSUBTANTIATED slanderous inferences. The difference is that my accusations were substantiated by Biblical evidence which you simply ignore.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist, believe what you will, and I know the post you are referring to has my name, but honestly, somone changed that post to read as it did and it was not myself.

The following words in that post were not mine nor did they come from my computer:

"or at least the post in a civil way, and not hurling personal attacks."

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, believe what you will, and I know the post you are referring to has my name, but honestly, somone changed that post to read as it did and it was not myself.

The following words in that post were not mine nor did they come from my computer:

The only one that can add to your post is the moderator. I wouldn't think that DHK would intentionally add to your post making it appear these were your own words.

 

[The Biblicist]

Biblicist, believe what you will, and I know the post you are referring to has my name, but honestly, somone changed that post to read as it did and it was not myself.

The following words in that post were not mine nor did they come from my computer:

Did the following words come from your computer:

Moriah, I have to admit that the willing blindness to the truth astounds me. Is it any wonder at times the prophet sat down and plucked out their very hair in utter confusion as to the rebellion and stubbornness of the human heart?

If so, then what is the point of denying that the other words did not come from your computer??? Instead of dealing with the Biblical evidence presented, you ignore it as you did in another post and make these kind of inferences against those who not only disagree with you but demonstrate by Biblical evidence you are wrong and yet not response to the evidence but slanderous inferences instead.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Biblicist: The only one that can add to your post is the moderator. I wouldn't think that DHK would intentionally add to your post making it appear these were your own words.

HP: Why not ask him directly, and if not, does he know who might have? Someone did.

I am being straight forward and honest with you. Do with it as you so desire.