Faith Re-Visited for the ???? time

Agree. I have not dissagreed with your statement that you make here. If you feel I did then you have miss understood me.

You acknowledge in your statement that had Paul Preached the wisdom of men they would have had "faith" in the wisdom of men." I agree.


The same "faith" that was exercised in the Power of God could have been in the wisdom of men if as you state and I agree that if Paul's message been in the wisdom of men.

The subject here is the existence of "faith". The same "faith" could have but did not. Because it did not does not negate the possibility Paul states because if it were not real Paul would not have stated it.

 

And so it is: We disagree

Does the passage say in vain?

or does it say "in order that the faith of you may not be in the wisdom of men"?

The construction of the Greek is clear as to the intent and meaning. Here is a word for word starting with verse 4.

And the speech of me (Paul) and the proclamation of me (Paul) not in persuasive of wisdom words,

But in demonstration of spirit and of power,

In order that the faith of you man not be in the wisdom of men,

But in power of God

The two verses could be translated as follow :

And the speech of me and the proclamation of me [was] not in persuasive of wisdom words in order that the faith of you not be in the wisdom of men, but in demonstration of spirit and of power in power of God.

You may disagree with me and that is fine.

The grammar is clear and states that the possibility exist - for the plural you - to have faith in the wisdom of men.

That tells me that man does by direct inference have faith in that which is not of God but with the correct information that man’s faith can be directed toward God as a result of the “demonstration of spirit and of power of God” the speech and proclamation can in.

We have the ability of faith on the part of the “you” Second person personal pronoun you”

(1) to be in the wisdom of men

Or

(2) to be in the speech and proclamation that is a demonstration of Spirit and Power of God.

 

The text indicates that "faith" can either be in the wisdom of man or power of God

The point I am making is that the same faith that is in the power of God could be in the wisdom of men.

This faith that Paul speaks of in the power of God which could also be in the wisdom of men is the same faith.

In that it is the same faith poses an interesting situation. If faith is a special gift given to an elect person whereby they are then able to believe in Jesus which suggest that the faith that was given could only be directed toward Jesus resulting is salvation.

So, in that Calvinism teaches this and these verses indicate that the same faith can find its object in the wisdom of men as well as in the power of God, in Christ, creates an impasse for the Calvinist. It suggest in clear terms that any view that believing faith is a special gift where by a regenerated person can only trust in Christ, that this teaching is false.

While I see it as false regardless of these verses they only serve as further evidence that what they say is incorrect.

 

I can see that you like to substitute "not in vain" for the actual words. I will take it that you intend it to be synonymous

There really is no sensible reason that such an issue come up unless it were possible. Paul is only the instrument of the message. It could be you in today’s world and it might very well have been you in your past and continues to be you as well in the present with respect to sharing the Gospel to the lost and teaching the saved.

Let take your wording "so that their faith would be in the right thing (Christ) and not in vain."

Here is how is stack up

(1) faith in the right thing (Christ)
(2) faith not in vain.

Faith takes an object so something it “out there” so to speak that becomes the object of belief, trust, or to believe in.

For faith to be in vain as it is compared to faith in Christ it has to have an object. We would ask this question, “What is the content of the ‘in vainness’ that the faith is placing its trust in.?”

Lost people believe in themselves, theories, philosophies they have learned, and false gospels of different forms of Christianity, cults, and world religions. etc. So, “in vain” covers a lot.

Both cases faith's object is either Christ or in vain things (human wisdom)

Gordon

 

The idea here is opportunity to believe in and suffer for which is supported by the grammar. They were not given saving faith so they could believe but the opportunity to believe. These two words "echaristhaa huper" are set against your understanding and grammatically make it impossible to see the text as teaching "faith" as a gift.

The idea is “you are granted the opportunity” Not only to believe but to suffer. You would have to change the structure of the grammar to support, what on the surface could and I am sure comes across as you have suggested, the idea that faith is a gift in this text. But, no the grammar does not support such a conclusion.

 

QUOTE=russell55]Well, first off, I'm not sure anyone here believes that faith in the wrong things is a gift from God. Trusting in the wrong things is the natural human condition, but trust in Christ alone for salvation is the supernatural gift. Trust in Christ does not come naturally to us, but is a work of the Spirit.

I don't think the texts you are quoting address where faith in Christ comes from.[/QUOTE]


Russell I don't completely disagree.

Two realms, Satans and God's - Satans is permitted because God is the permitter

But "faith" does not transfer form being an inherient ability of man to a special gift simply because the Object of faith changes.

A lost man's object of faith is self, or other theories, views, etc.

When sinner lost man hears the facts of the Gospel simmer man now has more information to consider. Add to that the convicting ministry of the HS in his heart and the fact that "The Light" sheds light on the subject Sinner man can transfer his faith form the deadness of whatever - to Christ.

Faith always takes an object. You can not have faith in something that does not exist.

How then does the capability to have faith come into existance.

(1) first the capacity is there for man to exersize it all the time and so do we
(2) the gift is not faith but the Grace of God that gives the capacity the object in which to trust, believe, or have faith in.

 

I think you are missing the point. There really isn't any need for the Holy Spirit to guide Paul to write the words he did unless the possibility where not there.

What does it say? It say the possibility exist give the circumstance that people could and actually do place faith in themselves, other systems, etc. The reason their faith was in the Power of God was because Paul was speaking in the will of God by the power of God's spirit and thus the correct message was given to them.

I am just going with the text which clearly suggest that the possibility exist. There really isn't any reason for it to be recorded for our hearing if it were not possible.

The bottom line of the text is that the same faith exercised to believe in the Power of God could have been the save faith to believe in the other that was not the power of God.

Implication: If, according to some Calvinist (it seems all on here) that "believing faith" is a special gift given to the first regenerated whereby they believe unto saving regeneration that they are in deep trouble from this text which clearly refutes such a notion.

This text clearly indicates that believing faith in the Power of God of which cold have been in the wisdom of men was resident in man and not a special gift given to a regenerated person.

Also, in that the text is clear on that distinction - if we posit the Calvinist view then once the regenerated person is given this special gift of faith they are fee to reject Christ which according to the text is a viable option given other circumstances.

The fact that "faith" in these verses are the same faith weather in the power of God or the wisdom of men clearly does not permit faith to be divided in to a so called human faith vs. a Devine faith.

No the faith spoken of in the text is a faith that exist in the perosns of which can be directed to the Power of God or the wisdom of men. It is the same "faith"

 

We actually agree on the "fact" that faith is not a special gift as some Calvinist preach and teach. That is good.

That was the only point I was making in the verses. The same faith can be in man or in God. Whatever other systems of Theology teach was not in consideration in my thinking as to what these verses say.

But, for the Calvinist that say and think and teach that "faith" is a special gift I take it you too disagree with that version of Calvinism.

Thank, I think we all learn as we drop our guards and let the Scripture speak for itself.

I thing we have done that at least you and I with respect to the topic of faith.

God Bless - Have to go do some Lock work.