Faith? Where does it come from?

[TCassidy]

Yea you have to play some mental gymnastics to make faith the gift.

It is not mental gymnastics. It is called "believing the bible."

2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.

Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

 

[TCassidy]

Yep. Goes back to the Calvinist's misinterpretation of Ephesians 2:8-9. They have faith as the gift. I believe as you do, that salvation is the gift.

I understand that that does not refer to the noun faith but to the act of believing. This understanding makes the best sense of the text, since if that refers to by grace you have been saved through faith (that is, to the whole statement), the adding of and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God would be redundant, because grace is defined as an unearned act of God. If salvation is of grace, it has to be an undeserved gift of God. Faith is presented as a gift from God in 2 Peter 1:1, Philippians 1:29, and Acts 3:16.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Those verses do not say that so help me out where do you get your position from.

We both believe faith is the vehicle by which any are saved. We both agree without it, it's impossible to please God. Now, it says God is the Author/Pioneer of our faith. If you author a book, it was you who created that book. If God Authors our faith, then He was the one who created/gave our faith.

--Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."

And then to copy and paste a portion of Brother TCassidy's post...

2 Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, tothem that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.

Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by himhath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

 

[Revmitchell]

We both believe faith is the vehicle by which any are saved. We both agree without it, it's impossible to please God. Now, it says God is the Author/Pioneer of our faith. If you author a book, it was you who created that book. If God Authors our faith, then He was the one who created/gave our faith.

--Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one He has sent."

Again, what those verses do not say is that he imposes faith on someone who was not otherwise looking for it. I will posit Christ is the author because he shed His blood on the Cross. That is what authorship is referring to.

And then to copy and paste a portion of Brother TCassidy's post...

I do not see his posts. If you continue to re-post his stuff when engaging me I will not respond to them.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

I believe the mind and the heart are the same thing. They are used somewhat interchangeably. The one mind (the brain) controls the body. We purpose to yield it to the Spirit or the flesh, one of our two natures. That is why there was such a struggle going on in Paul that he describes.... It is spiritual warfare--a battle of the mind: not the "minds" but of the "mind." We only have one.

Hi again Brother DHK,

Thanks for further elaborating on your beliefs. I disagree as I believe both the "inner man" and "outward man" each have a mind, the former the "mind of Christ", the latter the "carnal mind". There are two actual men (one fleshly, one spiritual) in one vessel. This is seen by statements of Paul in Romans 7:18, " For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing", here Paul clearly identifies the "I" as being the outward man which he calls " my flesh" that in it "dwelleth no good thing" , but then he continues four verses later and states, "22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Romans 7:22). Here notice Paul also identifies himself with an "I", but this time instead of the flesh mentions an "inward man" that delights "in the law of God", therefore this cannot be the same "I" as he identified in verse 18 as the flesh because in the flesh he stated "dwelleth no good thing", therefore how could the flesh "delight in the law of God"? There are two separate entities in one earthly vessel after regeneration. Also, have you ever heard of two men who share one mind, but if there is only one mind as you contend, but yet an "inner man" and "outward man", then this is what you must believe?

I do agree there is a warfare between the "inner man" and "outward man" ( as is described in Romans 7), however I do not use the term two natures because conveys an impossible idea that the sinner is born again and thus partakes of the Divine nature, retaining his old nature; and these two natures in one man war each against the other because Christ said, "Every kingdom divided against itself, is brought to desolation: and every city or house divided against itself, shall not stand.". It would certainly seem from this verse, that a man divided against himself would be of similar character; in other words he would be unable to be of any separate personality; and I might well ask in what possible manner such an organism could exist; one half natural, earthy; the other half, spiritual, heavenly?

At the new birth, there does not come to exist two natures, but rather two men, spirit born of Spirit; not flesh (sinner) born of Spirit. The old man (or natural man) is born after flesh from Adam, the new man is born after the Spirit from Christ, As Jesus said, "6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

Do you believe the mind of the flesh is changed after one becomes born again, if so how?

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Again, what those verses do not say is that he imposes faith on someone who was not otherwise looking for it. I will posit Christ is the author because he shed His blood on the Cross. That is what authorship is referring to.

Brother Rev,

Hello. If faith is not given by God to those upon becoming born again, why then does Paul thank God for that the Thessalonians receiving the gospel when he preached it to them, "13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thess 2:13) Why thank God for them receiving it if they did it of their own power and will, that would not make sense, would it?

 

[TCassidy]

I do not see his posts.

Of course he doesn't. I have proved him wrong, from the bible, time after time after time. If he could see what I post he would be without excuse for his denying what the bible clearly says. How utterly sad.

 

[DHK]

Hi again Brother DHK,

Thanks for further elaborating on your beliefs. I disagree as I believe both the "inner man" and "outward man" each have a mind, the former the "mind of Christ", the latter the "carnal mind". There are two actual men (one fleshly, one spiritual) in one vessel. This is seen by statements of Paul in Romans 7:18, " For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing", here Paul clearly identifies the "I" as being the outward man which he calls " my flesh" that in it "dwelleth no good thing" , but then he continues four verses later and states, "22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man" (Romans 7:22). Here notice Paul also identifies himself with an "I", but this time instead of the flesh mentions an "inward man" that delights "in the law of God", therefore this cannot be the same "I" as he identified in verse 18 as the flesh because in the flesh he stated "dwelleth no good thing", therefore how could the flesh "delight in the law of God"? There are two separate entities in one earthly vessel after regeneration. Also, have you ever heard of two men who share one mind, but if there is only one mind as you contend, but yet an "inner man" and "outward man", then this is what you must believe?

I believer the "I" is the same person. Paul is describing his struggle, as a saved person, dealing with the two natures every believer has. We have a sin nature and a new nature. We decide which one we will submit to. We have only one mind (brain). It is our will (mind) that must decide.

There are many examples that could be given. I came on BB because I enjoy it. But as I open up my computer I am tempted by all kinds of advertisements--whether in my junk mail or in other places. It would be very easy by a click of the mouse to enter into some immoral site, and then into a porn site. What do I do? Give into that which edifying or that which is destructive to the soul. That decision is mine, and made by me, I have one mind. I still have that old nature which I could give into.

What did Jesus say:
Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders,
22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness:
23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.
--The heart is the mind. We must choose to allow the mind of Christ to operate in our lives or give into our old nature, to allow our mind to rule over it instead of the mind of Christ.

I do agree there is a warfare between the "inner man" and "outward man" ( as is described in Romans 7), however I do not use the term two natures because conveys an impossible idea that the sinner is born again and thus partakes of the Divine nature, retaining his old nature; and these two natures in one man war each against the other because Christ said, "Every kingdom divided against itself, is brought to desolation: and every city or house divided against itself, shall not stand.". It would certainly seem from this verse, that a man divided against himself would be of similar character; in other words he would be unable to be of any separate personality; and I might well ask in what possible manner such an organism could exist; one half natural, earthy; the other half, spiritual, heavenly?

I believe nature is a better word because we can never get rid of that adamic nature until our bodies are fully redeemed. "We wait for the redemption of our bodies." We are not perfect; we still sin. We still give into that old nature. It is a decision of the mind. We may have a new nature but the old nature still remains. However, there remains but one mind but which we can make the decision to live by and or choose to live by.

At the new birth, there does not come to exist two natures, but rather two men, spirit born of Spirit; not flesh (sinner) born of Spirit. The old man (or natural man) is born after flesh from Adam, the new man is born after the Spirit from Christ, As Jesus said, "6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." (John 3:6)

Do you believe the mind of the flesh is changed after one becomes born again, if so how?

Our mind is part of out body. It is our brain, physically speaking. Spiritually speaking it is made alive to spiritually alive. There is a spiritual part to the mind, or more accurately it is the spirit, which animals do not have. That is what comes alive. But the spirit is still connected to the mind in some way. Through the spirit we worship God as we could not before. We are new creatures in Christ. The old still is there. The spirit has been quickened or made alive. But the mind is one. It must decide which nature to give into. If everything was automatic Paul would not have to write such chapters as Ephesians 4 and 5.

 

[thjplgvp]

DHK, I ask this in all sincerity.

How can faith be innate and a fruit of the Spirit? I have a hard time reconciling these two trains of thoughts. If everybody has faith, would they not have a fruit of the Spirit?

I am coming to the party late but the fact is even the unsaved person has faith. You believe if you put a key in the ignition and turn it the vehicle will start, you believe if you flick the light switch light will come on and you believe when you sit in a chair it will hold your volume of weight and not collapse. So keep in mind that there is the faith we were born with and that faith can be exercised to believe in God. Ephesians 2:8-9


There is also the faith that grows in its trust in God and this growth is based on what we hear and see as a believer. I had to exercise faith to give a little when I was first saved but as I have grown in Christ I now exercise faith to give much more than I did in the beginning.


When we walk in the spirit our faith grow greater in relation to our trust in how great our God is. My God is great and greatly to be praised therefore I please him by exercising greater faith as I grow in Christ. As other see my faith it also encourages them to grow in faith as well hence my community of believers is affected and encouraged by the faith that I live by.


Maybe I am over simplifying it but faith begets greater faith. Is this not what Hebrews 12:1 is telling us? That those who lived by faith in their era encourage us to live by faith in ours and the recipients of their faith were those who saw them live by faith “therefor seeing we also” are compassed about by so great a cloud of witnesses (those who live around us) … run the race set before us … looking to Jesus or putting our faith in Jesus.


thjplgvp

 

[SovereignGrace]

Yet faith is a fruit of the Spirit. How can everybody have a fruit of the Spirit, when many died, are dying now, and will die later in their sins, to be cast into hell?

That is why there is more than one type of faith. One is natural/fleshly/carnal, such as your car analogy, DHK's airplane example, a chair holding you up, your faith in your spouse, getting from point A to point B, &c. This faith saves nary a soul. God-given faith via regeneration of the Spirit saves.

 

[TCassidy]

I am coming to the party late but the fact is even the unsaved person has faith. You believe if you put a key in the ignition and turn it the vehicle will start, you believe if you flick the light switch light will come on and you believe when you sit in a chair it will hold your volume of weight and not collapse. So keep in mind that there is the faith we were born with and that faith can be exercised to believe in God

If you really think confidence in lock and key technology or in automotive design or electrical engineering is even remotely similar to the faith of Christ described in the bible then you have no understanding of biblical faith at all.

 

[TCassidy]

The English word "faith" occurs in the form “feyth,” in Havelok the Dane (13th century); and is similar to the Latin "fides" which comes from the Sanskrit root bhidh, meaning “to unite,” “to bind.” It is important to understand this ancient indication of the spiritual work of faith, as that which unites us to God for salvation.

To demean the proper understanding of that great word "faith" by comparing it to mere confidence in the ingenuity of man is disgusting and despicable and indicative of a massive failure to understand what biblical faith actually is. And that is a terrible indicator of the state of doctrinal understanding among some baptists.

 

[thjplgvp]

Brother Tom,

Why would you deny that we who are created in the image of God not be able to use the faith he hath given us to respond to the gospel he has told us to obey? Have you also fallen into the camp that believes you must be regenerated to be regenerated by faith? Has your education carried you so far abroad that you no longer believe that a man can respond by faith to the gospel call to salvation? Do you now believe that God must not only come and die and shed his blood and ascend to heaven that he must also be our conscience and our faith because he failed to create us with enough faith to be saved?

This may anger you but my intent is to ask you if your doctrines have changed since I knew you. To my knowledge you preached the gospel and expected that people would come to Christ through the simple message exercising the faith they had in the finished work of Christ. Do you now not believe that same simple truth whereby you were saved and those people you pastored were saved?

thhjplgvp

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Our mind is part of out body. It is our brain, physically speaking. Spiritually speaking it is made alive to spiritually alive. There is a spiritual part to the mind, or more accurately it is the spirit, which animals do not have. That is what comes alive. But the spirit is still connected to the mind in some way. Through the spirit we worship God as we could not before. We are new creatures in Christ. The old still is there. The spirit has been quickened or made alive. But the mind is one. It must decide which nature to give into. If everything was automatic Paul would not have to write such chapters as Ephesians 4 and 5.

No walking in the Spirit is automatic as He enables one by giving them both the "will" and the "do" by working in you, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13). As I think you rightly pointed out in one of our prior exchanges this verse is talking about our sanctification. So is this one, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philippians 1:6). God wrote the scriptures however to believers because unlike in regeneration, God uses means such as the reading of the scripture and prayer to accomplish our sanctification, but it is God who gives us the will to do these things as Jesus declared, "for without me ye can do nothing." (John 15:5). This would include having faith. I guess you believe faith is "nothing", otherwise you contradict this verse by saying a man by his will can make a decision to exercise his faith (not God given faith) to trust in Christ as their Savior?

 

[InTheLight]

Yet faith is a fruit of the Spirit. How can everybody have a fruit of the Spirit, when many died, are dying now, and will die later in their sins, to be cast into hell?

That is why there is more than one type of faith. One is natural/fleshly/carnal, such as your car analogy, DHK's airplane example, a chair holding you up, your faith in your spouse, getting from point A to point B, &c. This faith saves nary a soul. God-given faith via regeneration of the Spirit saves.

God gives every person a measure of knowledge of Him, and therefore of faith.

Romans 1:19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened.

It's what people do with that faith, nurtured and led by the Holy Spirit, that determines if they have saving faith.

Some people totally reject God, and God makes them reprobate, or unable to have faith:
25 who exchanged the truth of God for the lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge,

Others never come to saving faith.

 

[BrotherJoseph]

Yet faith is a fruit of the Spirit. How can everybody have a fruit of the Spirit, when many died, are dying now, and will die later in their sins, to be cast into hell?

That is why there is more than one type of faith. One is natural/fleshly/carnal, such as your car analogy, DHK's airplane example, a chair holding you up, your faith in your spouse, getting from point A to point B, &c. This faith saves nary a soul. God-given faith via regeneration of the Spirit saves.

Amen brother ! And Paul said "in me that is in my flesh dwelleth no good thing", so how do you get a good fruit from a bad tree? "18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit." (Matthew 7:18). Brother DHK must believe men are "good" trees (to use Christ's analogy) if they can bring forth the good fruit of putting faith in Christ by their own decision of their will.

 

[DHK]

It is not mental gymnastics. It is called "believing the bible."

2Peter 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to them that have obtained like precious faith with us through the righteousness of God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.

Let's consider the verse more carefully.
Peter was writing to a diverse audience:
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
--These were Christians who had grown up in different nations, abroad, away from their native country of Israel.
--The word "precious" here means "valued," or "honored." Thus for one born abroad they had obtained a precious and honored faith, that body of beliefs, which we have obtained, Their privileges of citizenship were the same as the apostles. The main point to take from this is that "faith" in no way is that intangible "faith" or "belief" in Christ. It is that body of truth, the canon of Scripture which we now believe.

Philippians 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake.

This verse is speaking of privilege. As it is expressed in some other translations:
(ISV) For you have been given the privilege for the Messiah's sake not only to believe in him but also to suffer for him.
--It is a privilege to believe on him.
--It is a privilege to be saved.
--It is a privilege to suffer for him. The apostles counted themselves worthy to suffer for his sake.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
Romans 8:17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Act 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.

Context is demanded to understand this verse.
First it was a "notable miracle" that a miracle of a man who had been a cripple for forty years should be healed. All the people wondered. What was the response of Peter?

Acts 3:12 And when Peter saw it, he answered unto the people, Ye men of Israel, why marvel ye at this? or why look ye so earnestly on us, as though by our own power or holiness we had made this man to walk?
--It was not by Peter's power that made this man to walk. It was by the power of the Lord Jesus. Christ.
In fact if you look further back at the miracle itself the lame man had no faith at all. He wasn't even expecting or asking for a miracle. He was just asking for some money for his needs.

Acts 3:4 And Peter, fastening his eyes upon him with John, said, Look on us.
5 And he gave heed unto them, expecting to receive something of them.
--All that he expected was some money, something to help sustain him. There was no exercise of faith to be healed.

Acts 3:6 Then Peter said, Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk.
7 And he took him by the right hand, and lifted him up: and immediately his feet and ancle bones received strength.
--This took him by surprise. It was not an exercise of faith on the part of the cripple. It was a miracle of Peter. It was Peter's faith in Christ to perform this miracle.

Acts 3:16 And his name through faith in his name hath made this man strong, whom ye see and know: yea, the faith which is by him hath given him this perfect soundness in the presence of you all.
Vine comments here:

Through faith (ἐπὶ τῇ πίστει)
Note the article: the faith which we had; not the cripple's faith, which was not demanded as a condition of his cure. Through faith (ἐπί) is rather on account of, or on the basis of. Rev., by. Compare Act_2:38; and see on Mat_28:19.
Through faith (ἐπὶ τῇ πίστει)
Note the article: the faith which we had; not the cripple's faith, which was not demanded as a condition of his cure. Through faith (ἐπί) is rather on account of, or on the basis of. Rev., by. Compare Act_2:38; and see on Mat_28:19.

--It was the Peter's faith that healed the cripple, and indeed Peter's faith came from Christ for he was saved. This is not speaking of God giving an unregenerate person faith, which is not taught in the scriptures.
If the man was saved he was saved by putting his faith in Christ, not God's faith in God.or Christ.

 

[DHK]

No walking in the Spirit is automatic as He enables one by giving them both the "will" and the "do" by working in you, "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure" (Philippians 2:12-13). As I think you rightly pointed out in one of our prior exchanges this verse is talking about our sanctification. So is this one, "Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:" (Philippians 1:6). God wrote the scriptures however to believers because unlike in regeneration, God uses means such as the reading of the scripture and prayer to accomplish our sanctification, but it is God who gives us the will to do these things as Jesus declared, "for without me ye can do nothing." (John 15:5). This would include having faith. I guess you believe faith is "nothing", otherwise you contradict this verse by saying a man by his will can make a decision to exercise his faith (not God given faith) to trust in Christ as their Savior?

If walking in the Spirit was automatic you would be sinless. For the Spirit never sins.

This would lead of course to a sinless life and John says:
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now that is an awkward place to put oneself!

 

[BrotherJoseph]

If walking in the Spirit was automatic you would be sinless. For the Spirit never sins.

This would lead of course to a sinless life and John says:
1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Now that is an awkward place to put oneself!

Hi brother,

The "inward man" that has been "born from above" by the Holy Spirit does "delight in the law of God" and does not sin. The "inward man" is what 1 John 3:6 is speaking of that says, "Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him", however we still have the "outward man" the "flesh" that in it "dwelleth no good thing". It is the "outward man" (the "flesh") that sins, thus of the "outward man" the same writer John who states we "sinneth not" also wrote, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us" (1 John 1:8). It is only when one recognizes the distinction between the "outward man" and the "inward man" that these seemingly two contradictory verses by the same author make sense. The flesh is not born from above after regeneration and therefore does not become sinless until we our transformed and receive the "adoption" of the body, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing" (John 6:63) and "even we ourselves groan within ourselves (the inward man), waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body (the outward man)" and "Who shall change our vile body (outward man), that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body".

 

[TCassidy]

Why would you deny that we who are created in the image of God not be able to use the faith he hath given us to respond to the gospel he has told us to obey?

Because the bible says, before we are regenerated (born again), we are God's enemies, we not only don't believe the spiritual things of scripture, we can't believe them.

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.