Faith? Where does it come from?

[SovereignGrace]

It is easier to see things with love.
With love (as far as my understanding), there is eros, phileo, and agape, that are used for love.
Agape is the word that is used to define divine love. Correct?
Eros is used to define the physical love between a man and a woman. Correct?
Now philial love is that love that would be between relatives, friends, and others. Correct.

What I find interesting is the passage in John 21. In the three passages where Jesus asks Peter: "Do you love me he uses two different verbs as almost all commentaries point out. I will quote from BKC.

Even Christ used phileo. Just because a Christian gains divine love does that cause phileo to dissapear?
Does that cause "eros" the physical love to his spouse to disappear?
Obviously not!

As with love, faith is both innate and spiritual. That should be easy to see.
It is with love. Why is it so hard to believe it cannot be the same way with faith?

But how is faith a fruit of the Spirit and also innate? If all faith is the same faith, then many have died, are dying, and will die possessing a fruit of the Spirit.

I agree with you about differing levels of love, but that still doesn't answer my questions.

The love we have for God is sourced from Him, not ourselves. 1 John 4 attests to this.

The faith we had as unregenerate came from ourselves.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I hope I have answered that already. I think we are posting past each other. See post #98

With all due respect, that did not answer my questions, mon ami.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Would you go so far as to say you become a believer, that is are moved from unbelief unto belief and or your eyes and ears are opened, by being given the Spirit of Truth?

Is there another way, Monsieur?

 

[DHK]

But how is faith a fruit of the Spirit and also innate? If all faith is the same faith, then many have died, are dying, and will die possessing a fruit of the Spirit.

As a person can have love before he is saved so can he have faith before he is saved.
As a small child can express love so can a small child express faith. Jesus demonstrated that. He said that one must be like a small child in order to enter the kingdom of God. One must have the simplicity of faith that a child has. That faith is innate. It has no spiritual dimension to it when the child is small.

I agree with you about differing levels of love, but that still doesn't answer my questions.

The love we have for God is sourced from Him, not ourselves. 1 John 4 attests to this.

The faith we had as unregenerate came from ourselves.

And why should that be difficult. Jesus used phileo for love, a love that the unsaved demonstrate between each other. The unsaved also have faith or confidence in each other. It is innate, just as a child has faith in his or her parents. We exercise faith every day, as you well know.
But to exercise faith is different. The object of faith becomes Christ and his saving work.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus...
--Look to Him. Why? He is the object of our faith.

Heb 12:3 For consider him...
--Consider Him. Why? He is the object of our faith.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I feel like we're on a merry-go-round, Brother DHK.

You say everyone has faith. I agree with my caveat; you know what it is, so I won't type it out again.

You also say faith is a fruit of the Spirit.

Now, answer this for me, please?

How do unregenerate peoples die eternally lost possessing a fruit of the Spirit?

You say you have answered my questions, but I'm still not seeing your point(s).

 

[SovereignGrace]

As a person can have love before he is saved so can he have faith before he is saved.

Love for their fellow man comes from them. Love for God is something God births them with. These are differing loves with differing sources.

As a small child can express love so can a small child express faith. Jesus demonstrated that. He said that one must be like a small child in order to enter the kingdom of God. One must have the simplicity of faith that a child has. That faith is innate. It has no spiritual dimension to it when the child is small.

This innate faith all peoples possess comes from man, oui.

And why should that be difficult. Jesus used phileo for love, a love that the unsaved demonstrate between each other.

No disagreement. Even Hitler loved some people, but detested the Jews. He had a hatred for God. Nothing could have changed this hatred towards God unless He birthed him via the Spirit.

The unsaved also have faith or confidence in each other. It is innate, just as a child has faith in his or her parents. We exercise faith every day, as you well know.

This resides in all unregenerate peoples. But again, it's a carnal/fleshly/natural faith.

But to exercise faith is different. The object of faith becomes Christ and his saving work.

Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus...
--Look to Him. Why? He is the object of our faith.

Heb 12:3 For consider him...
--Consider Him. Why? He is the object of our faith.

He is the Author/Pioneer(Initiator/Creator/Source) of our faith...saving faith here.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Oh, btw, not being snarky, but let's focus on faith and not love, okay? The thread is about the source of faith, not love. Thanks in advance.

 

[percho]

Is there another way, Monsieur?

Methinks we agree on that. Therefore let's consider and see if we continue in agreement.

The OP question
Faith? Where does it come from? Shoot, what is it?

Gal 3:14 YLT that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.
John 16:7 KJV Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Does Gal 3:14 not say that the promise of the Spirit, the Comforter is received through the faith? The, meaning a very specific faith and is that faith related or not to the going away of Jesus the Christ? That is of Jesus the Christ dying? I believe that is where Christ was going in a few hours after saying this, to his death.

The death of Christ must have been the faith of someone, did it not? Who? Who believed Jesus would, - Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Was it not the Father of Jesus Christ, God?

Question. Did God: in Christ Jesus, set forth to be a propitiation - before or after Jesus was born of the virgin Mary? Was it not before because of the following: YLT through the faith in his blood,? There is that definite article again?

Is Jesus propitiation because of our innate faith or because of the faith of God the Father in his Son? When did the obedience of faith take place? Whose obedience, whose faith?

Consider Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Do we still agree?

 

[SovereignGrace]

Methinks we agree on that. Therefore let's consider and see if we continue in agreement.

The OP question
Faith? Where does it come from? Shoot, what is it?

Gal 3:14 YLT that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith.
John 16:7 KJV Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

Does Gal 3:14 not say that the promise of the Spirit, the Comforter is received through the faith? The meaning a very specific faith and is that faith related or not to the going away of Jesus the Christ? That is of Jesus the Christ dying? I believe that is where Christ was going in a few hours after saying this, to his death.

The death of Christ must have been the faith of someone, did it not? Who? Who believed Jesus would, - Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.

Was it not the Father of Jesus Christ, God?

Question. Did God: in Christ Jesus, set forth to be a propitiation - before or after Jesus was born of the virgin Mary? Was it not before because of the following: YLT through the faith in his blood,? There is that definite article again?

Is Jesus propitiation because of our innate faith or because of the faith of God the Father in his Son? When did the obedience of faith take place? Whose obedience, whose faith?

Consider Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Do we still agree?

We agree. Not all faiths are the same. They have differing sources. One's carnal one's Spiritual

 

[Greektim]

It is easier to see things with love.
With love (as far as my understanding), there is eros, phileo, and agape, that are used for love.
Agape is the word that is used to define divine love. Correct?
Eros is used to define the physical love between a man and a woman. Correct?
Now philial love is that love that would be between relatives, friends, and others. Correct.

What I find interesting is the passage in John 21. In the three passages where Jesus asks Peter: "Do you love me he uses two different verbs as almost all commentaries point out. I will quote from BKC.

Even Christ used phileo. Just because a Christian gains divine love does that cause phileo to dissapear?
Does that cause "eros" the physical love to his spouse to disappear?
Obviously not!

As with love, faith is both innate and spiritual. That should be easy to see.
It is with love. Why is it so hard to believe it cannot be the same way with faith?

Methinks you need to read D.A. Carson's book Exegetical Fallacies. You're committing lexical fallacies big time. Correct? Correct? Correct? No and no, not correct. And eros isn't even used in the Bible. Not to mention that filein and agapein are interchangeable and do not have to have the "divine love" or "philial love". Quite honestly, the NT uses these words in all 3 cases that you listed. For example, see what word is used for how wives should "love" their husbands in Titus 2:4.

 

[Internet Theologian]

It is called debate. If you can't stand the heat, get out of the frying pan..

I can stand the heat, and can take anything you want to dish out from your little mind. I'm just telling you don't go telling me what Scripture I can and cannot use, OK? You have no authority nor even sound enough doctrine to be telling others what they can and cannot use.

 

[DHK]

How do unregenerate peoples die eternally lost possessing a fruit of the Spirit?

You say you have answered my questions, but I'm still not seeing your point(s).

I don't. This is the Calvinistic position that I keep harping against. You are the one that says God must give faith to the unregenerate in order for him to be saved. But it is a spiritual gift; a fruit of the Spirit. Suppose God gives him this spiritual gift/grace/fruit of the Spirit, and he suddenly dies before he is regenerated?
That is the question you must answer! How can this lost person having just been given faith to believe (a fruit of the Spirit) die without Christ. Many people it is possible.

How so? Some here believe that Cornelius was somehow regenerated without ever hearing the gospel. Not until four days later did Peter preach to him. Here is what Cornelius said before Peter preached:
Act 10:30
(30) And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
--Some here believe that he was regenerated at the time he saw the angel and then wasn't saved until Peter preached the gospel. Ridiculous. If Cornelius had died between that time would he have gone to heaven?
--According to this theology we have regenerated lost people running around the earth. They have divine faith but are not saved. The Bible teaches no such thing. Cornelius was saved when he believed. His belief was his own. He trusted Christ.

It is God that gives the fruit of the Spirit to believers only. These things should be self-evident.

 

[Internet Theologian]

I don't. This is the Calvinistic position that I keep harping against.

You're confusing your pitchfork with a harp.

You are the one that says God must give faith to the unregenerate in order for him to be saved.

And you're the one who that says man must do something before God will save him. To the contrary SG is saying that God must do all of the saving. Now, since God does grant faith to believe, why is it that you have a problem with God doing just that?

But it is a spiritual gift; a fruit of the Spirit.

Faith is a gift of the Spirit? Wait, you say the unregenerate have this already, innately, then, you mock others for showing that God grants this to the unregenerate, but at the same time you say the unregenerate have it. Your point is to mock others for saying that God grants this ti the unregenerate, then you say they already have it anyhow.

Suppose God gives him this spiritual gift/grace/fruit of the Spirit, and he suddenly dies before he is regenerated?

All that the Father has given Christ will come to Him and none will be lost. Do you not believe Him?

That is the question you must answer! How can this lost person having just been given faith to believe (a fruit of the Spirit) die without Christ. Many people it is possible.

Your logical fallacy.

How so? Some here believe that Cornelius was somehow regenerated without ever hearing the gospel. Not until four days later did Peter preach to him. Here is what Cornelius said before Peter preached:
Act 10:30
(30) And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
--Some here believe that he was regenerated at the time he saw the angel and then wasn't saved until Peter preached the gospel. Ridiculous. If Cornelius had died between that time would he have gone to heaven?
--According to this theology we have regenerated lost people running around the earth. They have divine faith but are not saved. The Bible teaches no such thing. Cornelius was saved when he believed. His belief was his own. He trusted Christ.

It is God that gives the fruit of the Spirit to believers only. These things should be self-evident.

You don't understand as of yet. That is the problem and an the answer as to why.

 

[DHK]

Methinks you need to read D.A. Carson's book Exegetical Fallacies. You're committing lexical fallacies big time. Correct? Correct? Correct? No and no, not correct. And eros isn't even used in the Bible. Not to mention that filein and agapein are interchangeable and do not have to have the "divine love" or "philial love". Quite honestly, the NT uses these words in all 3 cases that you listed. For example, see what word is used for how wives should "love" their husbands in Titus 2:4.

Concerning Tit.2:4, I doubt if the elder women had to teach the younger women anything about physical love. As MacDonald says:

A young woman should be taught to love her husband. But this means more than just kissing him when he leaves for work. It includes the myriad ways in which she can show that she really respects him—by acknowledging his headship in the home, by making no major decisions apart from him, by keeping an orderly home, by paying attention to personal appearance, by living within their means, by confessing promptly, by forgiving graciously, by keeping the lines of communication always open, by refraining from criticizing or contradicting her husband in front of others, and by being supportive when things go wrong.

Eros may not be specifically mentioned by "word," but it certainly is by example. OT examples about as in the life of Samson. The "love" David had for Bathsheba initially wasn't a true love or divine love.
Agape and phileo are sometimes interchanged. Agape is generally known as divine love.

 

[DHK]

And you're the one who that says man must do something before God will save him. To the contrary SG is saying that God must do all of the saving. Now, since God does grant faith to believe, why is it that you have a problem with God doing just that?

No. Faith is never a work. You have missed the boat if you believe that. Go back and study Rom.4:3-5.
Nowhere in scripture does it say that God grants faith to the unregenerate. Don't state an opinion that you can't back up with scripture. Not interested in opinions, rather biblical facts.

Faith is a gift of the Spirit? Wait, you say the unregenerate have this already, innately, then, you mock others for showing that God grants this to the unregenerate, but at the same time you say the unregenerate have it. Your point is to mock others for saying that God grants this ti the unregenerate, then you say they already have it anyhow.

1. In 1Cor.12 Faith is described as a gift of the Spirit for believers.
2. In Gal.5 Faith is described as a fruit of the Spirit for believers.
3. God gives these spiritual and divine graces to believers, never unbelievers. That which the unbeliever has is therefore innate belief. These truths are self-evident.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't. This is the Calvinistic position that I keep harping against. You are the one that says God must give faith to the unregenerate in order for him to be saved. But it is a spiritual gift; a fruit of the Spirit. Suppose God gives him this spiritual gift/grace/fruit of the Spirit, and he suddenly dies before he is regenerated?
That is the question you must answer! How can this lost person having just been given faith to believe (a fruit of the Spirit) die without Christ. Many people it is possible.

How so? Some here believe that Cornelius was somehow regenerated without ever hearing the gospel. Not until four days later did Peter preach to him. Here is what Cornelius said before Peter preached:
Act 10:30
(30) And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
--Some here believe that he was regenerated at the time he saw the angel and then wasn't saved until Peter preached the gospel. Ridiculous. If Cornelius had died between that time would he have gone to heaven?
--According to this theology we have regenerated lost people running around the earth. They have divine faith but are not saved. The Bible teaches no such thing. Cornelius was saved when he believed. His belief was his own. He trusted Christ.

It is God that gives the fruit of the Spirit to believers only. These things should be self-evident.

You still haven't answered my question.

Will anyone who has a fruit of the Spirit die lost?

If yes, then please expound.

If no, then please expound.

Thanks in advance.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I don't. This is the Calvinistic position that I keep harping against.

Look, I know without a doubt we will never meet in the middle here, but it is good to debate.

You are the one that says God must give faith to the unregenerate in order for him to be saved.

Oui Monsieur.

But it is a spiritual gift; a fruit of the Spirit.

Oui oui Monsieur. Now, how can the unregenerate possess a fruit of the Spirit when you say they don't?

Suppose God gives him this spiritual gift/grace/fruit of the Spirit, and he suddenly dies before he is regenerated?

All those the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away.[John 6:44]

And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.[John 6:39]

And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.[Romans 8:28-30]

being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.[Philippians 1:6]

When God starts a work in someone's life, He will also finish it, Monsieur.

That is the question you must answer!

I just did, mon ami.

How can this lost person having just been given faith to believe (a fruit of the Spirit) die without Christ. Many people it is possible.

Here is the crux of our disagreement. When God gives faith they are no longer unregenerate, but regenerate. You keep saying that faith is a fruit of the Spirit(and it is) and that everybody, even lost peoples have faith. How can this be? You have juxtaposed faith.

How so? Some here believe that Cornelius was somehow regenerated without ever hearing the gospel. Not until four days later did Peter preach to him. Here is what Cornelius said before Peter preached:
Act 10:30
(30) And Cornelius said, Four days ago I was fasting until this hour; and at the ninth hour I prayed in my house, and, behold, a man stood before me in bright clothing,
--Some here believe that he was regenerated at the time he saw the angel and then wasn't saved until Peter preached the gospel. Ridiculous. If Cornelius had died between that time would he have gone to heaven?
--According to this theology we have regenerated lost people running around the earth. They have divine faith but are not saved. The Bible teaches no such thing. Cornelius was saved when he believed. His belief was his own. He trusted Christ.

I can not answer that passage, Monsieur. I don't have an answer for every verse/passage in the bible. So when I don't know something, I stay away from it.

It is God that gives the fruit of the Spirit to believers only. These things should be self-evident.

If someone is a believer, they already have faith. One can not be a believer without having it. So again, how is faith a fruit of the Spirit and also innate in mankind?

Until you see the faith that lost have and the faith the save have a different, you will never sort this out.

 

[Revmitchell]

How do unregenerate peoples die eternally lost possessing a fruit of the Spirit?

Gal_5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

 

[SovereignGrace]

Gal_5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,

I agree with this Brother. I am just asking Brother DHK how can faith be both innate and a fruit of the Spirit? He says all faith is faith, whereas I see faith in your spouse, airplane, chair, car, family, friends, co-workers as a carnal/fleshly/natural faith. All possess this faith. Yet, the faith to believe in Christ is God-given at the point of regeneration.

But I do agree with your post, Brother Mitchell.

 

[Revmitchell]

I agree with this Brother. I am just asking Brother DHK how can faith be both innate and a fruit of the Spirit? He says all faith is faith, whereas I see faith in your spouse, airplane, chair, car, family, friends, co-workers as a carnal/fleshly/natural faith. All possess this faith. Yet, the faith to believe in Christ is God-given at the point of regeneration.

But I do agree with your post, Brother Mitchell.

I understand but I have not seen from you, as of yet, scripture to back this idea up. Can you help me out.