Faith

[JMF]

James 2:14-26 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The devils have faith that God is God and that He exists but they aren't elect

Romans 10:13-17 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Deuteronomy 1:6-8 The LORD our God spake unto us in Horeb, saying, Ye have dwelt long enough in this mount: Turn you, and take your journey, and go to the mount of the Amorites, and unto all the places nigh thereunto, in the plain, in the hills, and in the vale, and in the south, and by the sea side, to the land of the Canaanites, and unto Lebanon, unto the great river, the river Euphrates. Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.

Deuteronomy 1:19-21 And when we departed from Horeb, we went through all that great and terrible wilderness, which ye saw by the way of the mountain of the Amorites, as the LORD our God commanded us; and we came to Kadeshbarnea. And I said unto you, Ye are come unto the mountain of the Amorites, which the LORD our God doth give unto us. Behold, the LORD thy God hath set the land before thee: go up and possess it, as the LORD God of thy fathers hath said unto thee; fear not, neither be discouraged.

Deuteronomy 1:26-32 Notwithstanding ye would not go up, but rebelled against the commandment of the LORD your God: And ye murmured in your tents, and said, Because the LORD hated us, he hath brought us forth out of the land of Egypt, to deliver us into the hand of the Amorites, to destroy us. Whither shall we go up? our brethren have discouraged our heart, saying, The people is greater and taller than we; the cities are great and walled up to heaven; and moreover we have seen the sons of the Anakims there. Then I said unto you, Dread not, neither be afraid of them. The LORD your God which goeth before you, he shall fight for you, according to all that he did for you in Egypt before your eyes; And in the wilderness, where thou hast seen how that the LORD thy God bare thee, as a man doth bear his son, in all the way that ye went, until ye came into this place. Yet in this thing ye did not believe the LORD your God,

2 Kings 17:14 Notwithstanding they would not hear, but hardened their necks, like to the neck of their fathers, that did not believe in the LORD their God.

Psalms 106:24 Yea, they despised the pleasant land, they believed not his word:

Acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Acts 2:37-39 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

A certain man went to an orphanage to adopt a child, when he arrrived he noticed the little boy was wrapped up in chains and secured to the wall. He then approached the helpless little boy and said, "Wilt thou be made free?", the little boy replied, "Yes". Immediately the man loosed the boy and takes him home.

Did the boy do any work to gain his freedom?
Did the boy "hear" a call?
Did the boy respond to this call to be freed?

John 5:6 When Jesus saw him lie, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wilt thou be made whole?

[ November 25, 2002, 08:45 PM: Message edited by: JMF ]

 

[KenH]

JMF,

Just checking, but in quoting Acts 2:327-39 you weren't trying to say that one must be immersed before one is saved are you?

Ken

 

[swaimj]

Yet it is exactly what Paul says. Why do you disagree?? I cannot see how you can possibly deny that faith is a gift.

I did not deny that faith is a gift. I denied that the Ephesians passage says that faith is a gift. As to this passage, I deny that it teaches a determinism in which faith is given to some individuals and denied to others. The reason I deny that is because the grammar does not support faith being an individual gift in this passage for the "you(s)" are plural, not singular. Secondly, when Paul observes that a group of believers has faith and a group of unbelievers does not, he is making an observation about their current state. He is not saying that those who currently do not have faith can never have it. To construe such a teaching from this verse is to go beyond what Paul is saying and is to read a presupposition into it. Pastor Larry, if this is the only verse you have to demonstrate a deterministic faith given by God to some and denied to others, you are on shaky exegetical ground.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by swaimj:
1)The reason I deny that is because the grammar does not support faith being an individual gift in this passage for the "you(s)" are plural, not singular.

2)He is not saying that those who currently do not have faith can never have it.

1)Huh? A group is composed of individuals. If all of the members of a group have faith as a gift, then each individaul has faith as a gift.

2) I don't know of anyone who is saying that. Unless one is born already in a state of regeneration and is already capable of repenting and believing, we must all come to have faith at some point to be saved. Before then, we did not have faith.

Ken

 

[swaimj]

A group is composed of individuals. If all of the members of a group have faith as a gift, then each individaul has faith as a gift

Agreed. But here is my point. This passage is observing that a group of believers have faith. Calvinists are using it to say that believers are individually granted a special ability to believe prior to their salvation. The verse does not teach that. To use this verse to say that is to read something into the verse that is not there.

I don't know of anyone who is saying that. Unless one is born already in a state of regeneration and is already capable of repenting and believing, we must all come to have faith at some point to be saved. Before then, we did not have faith.

See, that's what I'm talking about. Paul is observing the state of these believers but you are speculating about their pre-conversion state. Paul simply is not addressing the issue you are raising here. Look elsewhere to find the answer if you must, but don't construe this verse to say something that it does not say.

 

[wjrighter]

TOPIC : FAITH = HEBREWS CHAPTER 11

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by swaimj:
This passage is observing that a group of believers have faith.

Yes. And their faith is a gift from God. Otherwise, to ask the following of God would be rather pointless -

Mark 9:24(NASB)
24 Immediately the boy’s father cried out and said, “I do believe; help my unbelief.”

Ken

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by swaimj:
As to this passage, I deny that it teaches a determinism in which faith is given to some individuals and denied to others. The reason I deny that is because the grammar does not support faith being an individual gift in this passage for the "you(s)" are plural, not singular.

But the group is made of individuals and saving faith is not a corporate faith but an individual one. Since Paul is writing to a group of individuals you would expect plural pronouns. That means nothing with respect to this question.

Secondly, when Paul observes that a group of believers has faith and a group of unbelievers does not, he is making an observation about their current state. He is not saying that those who currently do not have faith can never have it. To construe such a teaching from this verse is to go beyond what Paul is saying and is to read a presupposition into it.

I have not said that they can never have it. God may give it to them as he gave it to "you" (in the passage). Again, the point is that God says faith is a gift, just like suffering is. I think you are underestimating the text because of your preconceived conclusions.

Pastor Larry, if this is the only verse you have to demonstrate a deterministic faith given by God to some and denied to others, you are on shaky exegetical ground.

It is not the only passage but it is a clear one. However, how many times must a doctrine be in Scripture before it is accepted as truth? I think one is sufficient.

 

[JMF]

Romans 4:4-8 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

Back to the original point- Calvinists say that those of us who believe a choice must be made to believe God's word(faith) are teaching works. (In other words, man had a part of the "work" of salvation.) My KING JAMES Bible says in these verses that faith and works oppose each other.

I believe salvation is of God.
I believe no one has ever or will ever be saved without God initiating it(seeking, drawing, enlightening, giving the power, etc.) and doing the "work" of salvation.
However, I also believe that He has limited His power to save to those who choose to believe(faith). And if a person chose to believe, they didn't do any "work" to gain their salvation, they believed and God did the work.

John 6:28-29 Then said they unto Him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on Him whom He hath sent.

If you must focus on works... this is it- believe on Him whom He hath sent

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by JMF:
I also believe that He has limited His power to save

I believe God has unlimited power to save. If He didn't, I couldn't be saved. I trust in His power alone, and not in my own in any shape, form, or fashion.

I hope this helps.

Ken