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Fake Eschatology, continued from previous thread

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Two Wings

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...Except history proves you wrong.
As for "this generation", it means the one which shall see those events begin, & will also see Jesus' return.

I agree.

Furthermore, I believe "this generation" refers to the one which begins at the time Israel is reborn. Certainly God knew the last 2000 years before they occurred.

Whereas "a generation" is defined by Psalms 90 ... 70 years ... or 80 if by strength.

The folks born in 1947 are markers of the time remaining and most don't even know it.
 

kyredneck

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..Except history proves you wrong.

Nope. You're saying history proves Christ wrong. Period. You consistently make Christ out to be a liar.

As for "this generation", it means the one which shall see those events begin, & will also see Jesus' return.

I believe "this generation" refers to the one which begins at the time Israel is reborn.

That's so lame, and wrong. That particular generation of Christ's day was a peculiar generation in that it had been foretold of through prophecy such as the Song of Moses [Dt 31:16 - Dt 32], which also is quoted from several times in the NT. Christ prophesied many times concerning that particular evil generation of his day:

33 Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
34 Therefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: some of them shall ye kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute from city to city:
35 that upon you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of Abel the righteous unto the blood of Zachariah son of Barachiah, whom ye slew between the sanctuary and the altar.
36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, that killeth the prophets, and stoneth them that are sent unto her! how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate. Mt 23

Mere minutes or hours later Christ is still referring to that particular generation in the Olivet Discourse.

This is one of my biggest beefs with Dispensationalism, it destroys the underlying continuity of the scriptures concerning that very wicked generation. They're called serpents and offspring of vipers by Christ and John the Baptist and specifically singled out by Moses some 1400 years earlier where he plainly states “they are not His children”:

29 For I know that after my death ye will utterly corrupt yourselves, and turn aside from the way which I have commanded you; and evil will befall you in the latter days; because ye will do that which is evil in the sight of Jehovah, to provoke him to anger through the work of your hands. Dt 31
5 They have dealt corruptly with him, they are not his children, it is their blemish; They are a perverse and crooked generation.
20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: For they are a very perverse generation, Children in whom is no faithfulness.
21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; They have provoked me to anger with their vanities: And I will move them to jealousy with those that are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation. Dt 32

8 Then certain of the scribes and Pharisees answered him, saying, Teacher, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given it but the sign of Jonah the prophet:
40 for as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall stand up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, a greater than Jonah is here.
42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and behold, a greater than Solomon is here.
43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

1 And the Pharisees and Sadducees came, and trying him asked him to show them a sign from heaven.
2 But he answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the heaven is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to-day: for the heaven is red and lowering. Ye know how to discern the face of the heaven; but ye cannot discern the signs of the times.
4 An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of Jonah. And he left them, and departed. Mt 16

24 for as the lightning, when it lighteneth out of the one part under the heaven, shineth unto the other part under heaven; so shall the Son of man be in his day.
25 But first must he suffer many things and be rejected of this generation. Lu 17

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
24 And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led captive into all the nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lk 21

16 But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is like unto children sitting in the marketplaces, who call unto their fellows
17 and say, We piped unto you, and ye did not dance; we wailed, and ye did not mourn.
18 For John came neither eating nor drinking, and they say, He hath a demon.
19 The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works. Mt 11

40 And with many other words he testified, and exhorted them, saying, Save yourselves from this crooked generation. Acts 2

And Josephus, himself a Jew and an eye witness to all that transpired, certainly had nothing good to say of 'that generation':

“It is therefore impossible to go distinctly over every instance of these men's iniquity. I shall therefore speak my mind here at once briefly: - That neither did any other city ever suffer such miseries, nor did any age ever breed a generation more fruitful in wickedness than this was, from the beginning of the world.....” Book 5, ch 10, sec. 5

“.. I suppose, that had the Romans made any longer delay in coming against these villains, that the city would either have been swallowed up by the ground opening upon them, or been overflowed by water, or else been destroyed by such thunder as the country of Sodom (20) perished by, for it had brought forth a generation of men much more atheistical than were those that suffered such punishments; for by their madness it was that all the people came to be destroyed....” Book 5, ch. 13, sec. 6

“....and I cannot but think that it was because God had doomed this city to destruction, as a polluted city, and was resolved to purge his sanctuary by fire, that he cut off these their great defenders and well-wishers, while those that a little before had worn the sacred garments, and had presided over the public worship; and had been esteemed venerable by those that dwelt on the whole habitable earth when they came into our city, were cast out naked, and seen to be the food of dogs and wild beasts. And I cannot but imagine that virtue itself groaned at these men's case, and lamented that she was here so terribly conquered by wickedness.....” Book 4, ch. 5, sec. 2
 
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Two Wings

Well-Known Member
That's so lame, and wrong.

perhaps ... but was not israel's rebirth also prophesied?

Isaiah and Ezekiel even described the places from which they'd come to reconstitute the nation.

Now ... what is UN resolution 181 if not the reconstitution of the state of Israel? And from whence did the original inhabitants depart to arrive in Israel?

I recognize the difference in the ethnic/secular non-practicing Jew ... and the orthodox Jews still looking for Messiah to come (the first time) ... but really ... this particular nation was reborn 1877 years after it was destroyed. What other nation has done that?
 

kyredneck

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Jesus said that trib will be the worst in History

No other slaughter/genocide in history, including the massacres at Merv and Nanking, matches that which occurred at Jerusalem A.D. 70. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".

43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12

and Rev.3:10 says it'll come upon THE WHOLE WORLD.

FROM JOHN THE WRITER OF REVELATION:

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18
 

Yeshua1

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perhaps ... but was not israel's rebirth also prophesied?

Isaiah and Ezekiel even described the places from which they'd come to reconstitute the nation.

Now ... what is UN resolution 181 if not the reconstitution of the state of Israel? And from whence did the original inhabitants depart to arrive in Israel?

I recognize the difference in the ethnic/secular non-practicing Jew ... and the orthodox Jews still looking for Messiah to come (the first time) ... but really ... this particular nation was reborn 1877 years after it was destroyed. What other nation has done that?
God still has a plan for national israel, as it shall be reborn unto Him at His second coming!
 

kyredneck

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but was not israel's rebirth also prophesied?

The Church IS 'Israel reborn'.

I agree.

Furthermore, I believe "this generation" refers to the one which begins at the time Israel is reborn. Certainly God knew the last 2000 years before they occurred.

Whereas "a generation" is defined by Psalms 90 ... 70 years ... or 80 if by strength.

The folks born in 1947 are markers of the time remaining and most don't even know it.

was not israel's rebirth also prophesied?

You've Israel on the brain. When the Harlot, Mystery Babylon, is correctly understood to be none other apostate Judaism, then other prophecies come to light:

7 (and, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead); and this is a woman sitting in the midst of the ephah.
8 And he said, This is Wickedness: and he cast her down into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there came forth two women, and the wind was in their wings; now they had wings like the wings of a stork; and they lifted up the ephah between earth and heaven.
10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
11 And he said unto me, To build her a house in the land of Shinar [BABYLON]: and when it is prepared, she shall be set there in her own place. Zech 14

Modern Israel might be prophecy fulfilled, but it is Wickedness if it is. It is Wickedness for the Church of Christ to marvel and wonder after that old apostate whore. IMO, those that blindly, glibly support her and take glee in her actions also take part in the atrocities that she routinely commits.

Physical Israel should mean no more to the Church than any other race or ethnic group.
 

Yeshua1

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The Church IS 'Israel reborn'.





You've Israel on the brain. When the Harlot, Mystery Babylon, is correctly understood to be none other apostate Judaism, then other prophecies come to light:

7 (and, behold, there was lifted up a talent of lead); and this is a woman sitting in the midst of the ephah.
8 And he said, This is Wickedness: and he cast her down into the midst of the ephah; and he cast the weight of lead upon the mouth thereof.
9 Then lifted I up mine eyes, and saw, and, behold, there came forth two women, and the wind was in their wings; now they had wings like the wings of a stork; and they lifted up the ephah between earth and heaven.
10 Then said I to the angel that talked with me, Whither do these bear the ephah?
11 And he said unto me, To build her a house in the land of Shinar [BABYLON]: and when it is prepared, she shall be set there in her own place. Zech 14

Modern Israel might be prophecy fulfilled, but it is Wickedness if it is. It is Wickedness for the Church of Christ to marvel and wonder after that old apostate whore. IMO, those that blindly, glibly support her and take glee in her actions also take part in the atrocities that she routinely commits.

Physical Israel should mean no more to the Church than any other race or ethnic group.
Israel still has a plan in the mind of God!
 

robycop3

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
No other slaughter/genocide in history, including the massacres at Merv and Nanking, matches that which occurred at Jerusalem A.D. 70. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".

43 But the unclean spirit, when he is gone out of the man, passeth through waterless places, seeking rest, and findeth it not.
44 Then he saith, I will return into my house whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished.
45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself seven other spirits more evil than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man becometh worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this evil generation. Mt 12



FROM JOHN THE WRITER OF REVELATION:

20 Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. Jn 18
Well, actually, the Nazi holocaust was much-worse for the Jews, with some 6 million out of a world population of 13 million perishing. And, of course, there have been much-worse events than the destruction of J, such as the "black death" plagues of Europe, the 2 world wars, & the flu pandemic of 1918.

And the great trib will be worldwide, as Scripture says, Now, please tell us when this was fulfilled-Rev. 16:3 The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a dead person, and every living thing in the sea died.
That includes a lot more than people. When did it happen?
 

kyredneck

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Well, actually, the Nazi holocaust was....

...more of the curses and punishments of Lev 16 & Dt 28, it was not the great tribulation, What made the "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be" was that it was self-inflicted. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".
 

Yeshua1

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...more of the curses and punishments of Lev 16 & Dt 28, it was not the great tribulation, What made the "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be" was that it was self-inflicted. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".
Satan planned the Holocaust to destroy the Jews, but God used that for their good and His glory in end result of Israel!
 

Lodic

Well-Known Member
They plainly say "Those who are alive will be changed".
Right - "will be changed", as in "we will have new bodies".

Try again! Rev. 3:7 says it's to the church in PHILADELPHIA, which is in what's now Alasahir, Turkey, nowhere near Jerusalem. And it still exists!
My apologies. I was looking at the wrong passage. Regardless, this was still a specific message to that church. It is interesting that this church is still around, though. Guess God really meant it when He was protecting them.

And you're forgetting that news becomes history. For example, the launching of Sputnik was big news when I was a boy. I was thrilled to pick up its broadcast on a shortwave radio. (Only a child would be thrilled by hearing "beep-beep-beep-beep-beep".) But it's history now.
But anyway, the occurrence of the eschatological events is NOT found in history. Thus, prets reduce those Scriptures which disprove their myth to "figurative/symbolic" status.
True, today's news is tomorrow's history. That must have been really exciting to have lived in that time. The closest I can imagine to that is watching the movie "October Sky".
I really wish I could help you see that prophetic events in the Bible are often described in symbolic terms. We are still at an impasse, as each of us are absolutely convinced that we have the correct view of eschatology.
 

robycop3

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...more of the curses and punishments of Lev 16 & Dt 28, it was not the great tribulation, What made the "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be" was that it was self-inflicted. The Jews virtually self destructed, it was suicide, the infighting/civil war/self destruction that broke out among 'that generation' killed as many or more as the Roman army did. They literally became demon possessed mad men that turned on each other. From that aspect alone it was indeed "great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be".
It was not worldwide, as Scripture saya it shall be.
 

robycop3

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Right - "will be changed", as in "we will have new bodies".


My apologies. I was looking at the wrong passage. Regardless, this was still a specific message to that church. It is interesting that this church is still around, though. Guess God really meant it when He was protecting them.
That church is much-changed from then, of course. But it's still an island of Christianity in a sea of Moslems. However, they all get along . But if God intends to keep some Christians outta the trib, He intends to keep ALL out of it, as Scripture shows all Christians are equal.


True, today's news is tomorrow's history. That must have been really exciting to have lived in that time. The closest I can imagine to that is watching the movie "October Sky".
I really wish I could help you see that prophetic events in the Bible are often described in symbolic terms. We are still at an impasse, as each of us are absolutely convinced that we have the correct view of eschatology.

There's no good reason to reduce some Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status. Some passages are, of course, symbolic, and plainly so. And some, such as "falling stars",are written according to man's perceptions at the time, such as man's regarding meteors as falling stars because they knew no differently. But MOST of Scripture is LITERAL. Otherwise, man could make it mean anything he liked.

But again, preterists reduce many prophetic passages to symbolic status because history dies not show it as being fulfilled yet. However, we see LITERAL fulfillment of those parts of the Olivet Discourse that have come to pass.(The destruction of J & the temple, war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians, etc.) so there's simply NO GOOD REASON to not believe the rest is JUST-AS-LITERAL ! !
 

Lodic

Well-Known Member
There's no good reason to reduce some Scriptures to "figurative/symbolic" status. Some passages are, of course, symbolic, and plainly so. And some, such as "falling stars",are written according to man's perceptions at the time, such as man's regarding meteors as falling stars because they knew no differently. But MOST of Scripture is LITERAL. Otherwise, man could make it mean anything he liked.

But again, preterists reduce many prophetic passages to symbolic status because history dies not show it as being fulfilled yet. However, we see LITERAL fulfillment of those parts of the Olivet Discourse that have come to pass.(The destruction of J & the temple, war, rumor of war, persecution of Christians, etc.) so there's simply NO GOOD REASON to not believe the rest is JUST-AS-LITERAL ! !
You refer to interpreting prophecy as symbolic imagery as "reducing it" to something less than what it is when it's simply understanding it the same as the original audience would have understood it. Scripture has several different genres of literature - literal historical narrative, parables, poetry, prophetic symbolism, etc. There is no reason to interpret as literal what the author meant as symbolic. That changes the meaning of the passages. As you say, this leads to men making the passage mean anything they like, e.g. the futurist views of the fantastic imagery in Revelation.
 

Salty

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kyredneck

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Actually, Josephus wrote of all the events that Jesus spoke of in the Olivet Discourse.

BINGO! Josephus was not only an astute eyewitness of the war that the Jews made upon the Romans (66-70 AD), but he was also a priest, of noble blood, a scholar, a historian, he served as General in command of the Galilean forces that first fought Vespasian 66 AD in the initial assault from the north, he was taken and held prisoner and carried along for the duration of the war by Vespasian and later by his son Titus to plead to the Jews to lay down their arms which they did not, he was married several times, he was basically adopted into Vespasian's family and lived in Rome....

His autobiography is colorful to say the least:

Life Of Flavius Josephus – Online Ancient Witness (wordpress.com)
 
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kyredneck

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..Except history proves you wrong.

No it doesn't. You keep saying that and it's not true. The Bible is true, not history books. If God, Jesus, or the prophets said something was going to happen at a certain time, then IT HAPPENED, no matter whether it could be observed with the mortal eye or not...IT HAPPENED.
 
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