Falling Away from Grace?

There's still no mention of "into the fire that shall never be quenched."

 

What does authentic conversion mean/they are either saved or they are not. Yes, we seem to agree “abiding in Him” is vital; but you seem to be separating conversion from being reborn. To me being reborn is spiritually living through or abiding in Him and is an irreversible free will step that happens through faith alone.

I don’t think the unsaved are on the true vine, never where, I don’t see that in this scripture, I think that’s where your preconceived notions play in. I think the unsaved are a branch that is rooted in the world and that is why “men gather them”. If they were on the “true vine” how could they do “nothing”? The Word says that if they are abiding in Him which would be on the true vine “the same” bringeth forth much fruit. Either they are on the true vine and bring fruit or they are not and bring nothing. If they were on the true vine and didn’t bring fruit that would be a contradiction to verses 4, 5, and 7, and if they did “nothing” they were never abiding in Him to begin with or that would be a contradiction to verses 4, 5, and 6.

From my understanding of man’s doctrine of Eternal Security it is a Calvinist view that both traditional and non-traditional Calvinist agree that it advocates the necessity of good works and unfortunately that comes by (their) man’s standards of sanctification and they doctrinally attempt to separate that from being reborn to make it fit. This results in a lot of double talk on the value of faith. Personally, I think the second a hearts intention is pure in love through belief in dedicating all its love to God in faith alone that God through His grace accepts us through His Son as His children and at that very second as His children we have salvation and that is “abiding in Him”. Being a Child will never “fall away” and at this point we are instructed to mature and become disciples; any works that produce fruit after becoming a Child of God are His glory alone.

I think it dangerous to say that we need works after being reborn to have salvation because it shows a lack of faith in the fullness of the price paid on the cross and a belief that “we” are earning our own way to heaven. I think Mat 7:21 is referring to a “branch” from a corrupt tree not the “true vine” and the proof is when “they” think “their” works count for anything. Lord, Lord have “WE” not in thy name done many wonderful works. The answer is NO, “YOU” have not, the only fruit come from “abiding in Him” and are HIS glory. Obviously, He never knew them as they were presenting “their” works of “their” glory saying in HIS name, but these were men gathering their corrupt fruit up before the Lord and were really doing “NOTHING” except casting them in the fire at the JSOC. As far as authentic conversion their own words burned them showing a lack of faith of our Savior being sufficient, the only way and all the glory being the Fathers.

Sorry about the long post, so anyway, this ET doctrine is not “MY” iron clad rule being that it relies on works so I guess I agree here that it doesn’t work. So Calvinism is out the window; however, I do not believe one can lose their salvation if truly reborn so in that sense I believe in OSAS and contrary to the Arminian view that it’s possible for a true believer to fall away from grace. So Arminianism is out the window too,-go figure! I don’t seem to fit into traditional or non-traditional Calvinism on eternal security or the Arminian camp of losing grace.

 

No, I leave it as “If” like a promise of the truth. “If” we through love, as He has laid out, lay down our life (similar to His commandment from the Father) which only could be fact, ye “SHALL” abide in His love compared to Jesus’ promise of truth from His Father and abiding in His love. “Shall” is not conditional.

As for v9 it is comparing Jesus abiding with the Father to us abiding through Him, that would also be a promise of the truth that we will “continue” in His love and therefore as instructed love as a disciple to bring God glory. That is a fact of truth that is not conditional.

 

I believe strongly in OSAS and eternal security, but I don't believe salvation (justification) is dependent upon good works as 5-point Calvinists and Arminians do. It is not based on what we do but on what Christ has already done alone through faith alone.

 

I agree completely but that said arminiasm doesn't suggest we are justified by the law. It says we can fall away from grace. </font>[/QUOTE]It says a BELIEVER can fall from grace. What do they say makes a believer and how do they suggest then that one could fall grace being a believer?

 

Yes, only a believer can "fall from grace." How could one "fall from grace" if he were not "in grace" to begin with. Now what does it mean to "fall from grace"? It means to fall from the teaching, doctrine, or practice of grace, not the saving effect of grace. Look at the context. The Galatians figured that because God gave the law of circumcision to the Jews that it somehow had to be required for all people and that someone God would not save one if he were not at least circumcised first. This then would make Christ of none effect if one had to perform the works of the law to be saved. Paul used the phrase "justified by the law" as a metaphor to describe what these people were trying to teach. No one can be actually justified by the law. Because of their enforcement of circumcision they were "fallen from grace" as in they were not acting and teaching in light of grace. Simple, huh.

 

OK, I think I might could handle it in that context, as long as it doesn't mean the saving effect of grace.

 

What does authentic conversion mean/they are either saved or they are not. Yes, we seem to agree “abiding in Him” is vital; but you seem to be separating conversion from being reborn. To me being reborn is spiritually living through or abiding in Him and is an irreversible free will step that happens through faith alone.

I don’t think the unsaved are on the true vine, never where, I don’t see that in this scripture, I think that’s where your preconceived notions play in. I think the unsaved are a branch that is rooted in the world and that is why “men gather them”. If they were on the “true vine” how could they do “nothing”? The Word says that if they are abiding in Him which would be on the true vine “the same” bringeth forth much fruit. Either they are on the true vine and bring fruit or they are not and bring nothing. If they were on the true vine and didn’t bring fruit that would be a contradiction to verses 4, 5, and 7, and if they did “nothing” they were never abiding in Him to begin with or that would be a contradiction to verses 4, 5, and 6.

</font>[/QUOTE]OK, then we agree on this. You're restating what I said in a slightly different way. Why would an unsaved person be on the vine (I asked)? The answer is they would not be there you replied. Right?

Then who are the people (branches) that wither and die and are cast into the fire? We've just agreed that everyone on the vine is a Christian and therefore saved.

The Bible tells us. It is those saved individuals who did not abide in Christ. They have fallen from grace.

Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.

 

No, I leave it as “If” like a promise of the truth. “If” we through love, as He has laid out, lay down our life (similar to His commandment from the Father) which only could be fact, ye “SHALL” abide in His love compared to Jesus’ promise of truth from His Father and abiding in His love. “Shall” is not conditional.

As for v9 it is comparing Jesus abiding with the Father to us abiding through Him, that would also be a promise of the truth that we will “continue” in His love and therefore as instructed love as a disciple to bring God glory. That is a fact of truth that is not conditional. </font>[/QUOTE]If I go on a diet and exercise more I will lose weight. If I don't I will not lose weight. We have the free will to make this simple (?) choice. We also have the free will to not keep His commandments.

Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you (in the past and until now): continue ye in my love (a command and a warning).

 

There's still no mention of "into the fire that shall never be quenched." </font>[/QUOTE]Do you want to stand before the Judgement without Christ's love? I don't. He tells us here how we can abide in His love, to keep His commandments. By the way, the vine was an illustration but this is a serious message from Christ to us that we must abide in Him. It's not a parable.

 

Don't take "fallen from grace" out of its original context in Galatians. It should only be used as it is found in the context of Galatians: namely Judaizers and those who teach "justification by the law." This phrase has not to do with "abiding in Christ" in John 15.

 

I don't either. Do you mean the Judgment (Bema) seat of Christ?

Agree.

Yes, it is not a parable, but it is still an illustration. I just don't like it when people inject justification, eternality, and heaven/hell into every little passage when it is not clearly obvious.

Christ's love is unconditional, but ours isn't. We must abide in His love by obeying His commandments in order to bear fruit in our Christian lives, because, according to His illustration, He is the root of fruit. Still, I don't see this passage as dealing with justification and eternal salvation. Our justification is not dependent upon our efforts to abide in Christ by obeying His commandments, but on what He has completed on the Cross. Our sanctification and bearing fruit is dependent upon us abiding in Christ by obeying His commandments.

 

I would commend the following website for information on the possibility of falling from Grace:

www.evangelicaloutreach.org

Kind regards to all.

Bob

 

"Fallen from grace" is only found in one passage:

Fallen from grace means teaching justification by the Law, or any part of the Law (circumcision). Plain and simple. Don't make it anything that it is not.

 

I see your point and agree, I think if one is abiding in Christ he is living in Christ and that means you are a new creature (permanently) and the meaning of “fallen from grace” is not represented in John 15 but is being distorted to declare the saved could possibly not abide (live) in Christ.

(Gal 6:13) For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.

(Gal 6:14) But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ , by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

(Gal 6:15) For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

 

Fallen from grace means teaching justification by the Law, or any part of the Law (circumcision). Plain and simple. Don't make it anything that it is not. </font>[/QUOTE]Does accepting Christ give us the license to continue to be controlled by sin? As Paul said, "God forbid."

Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

This is the same fruit that was discussed previously when Jesus used the example of the vine. He said what would happen to those who did not display this fruit.

***********************************************

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

I don't either. Do you mean the Judgment (Bema) seat of Christ?

Agree.

Yes, it is not a parable, but it is still an illustration. I just don't like it when people inject justification, eternality, and heaven/hell into every little passage when it is not clearly obvious.

Christ's love is unconditional, but ours isn't. We must abide in His love by obeying His commandments in order to bear fruit in our Christian lives, because, according to His illustration, He is the root of fruit. Still, I don't see this passage as dealing with justification and eternal salvation. Our justification is not dependent upon our efforts to abide in Christ by obeying His commandments, but on what He has completed on the Cross. Our sanctification and bearing fruit is dependent upon us abiding in Christ by obeying His commandments. </font>[/QUOTE]I don't understand why you don't see this passage as dealing with Justification. It seems pretty clear to me. But there are plenty of other places in the Bible that present the same message.

Let's look at another one. This verse from Hebrews talks about the necessity of holding our faith stedfast until the end.

Hbr 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

********************************************

Hbr 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Hbr 3:8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
Hbr 3:9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
Hbr 3:10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in [their] heart; and they have not known my ways.
Hbr 3:11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
Hbr 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
Hbr 3:13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Hbr 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;