Falling away???

Tuor,
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Are we just puppets carrying out what God intended from the beginning, or are we some how given free will by which God's plan must come true? I don't know. It doesn't affect my life in the least.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHAT? God's sovereignty or lack therof doesn't have an impact on your life?

[ February 07, 2002: Message edited by: TomVols ]

 

Tuor,
But this "God of the Bible" you claim to love is either soveriegn or He's not. Either He's in control of your life or He's not. Either He's savior or not. How can this not make a difference to you?

 

Tuor,
You certainly have a Clintonesque way of blurring and marring an issue, I have to hand it to you. Since you seem to only want to appeal to your subjective opinions rather than the obective Word of God, I'm finding it's impossible to reason from the Scriptures with you or reason with you at all

 

Okay, maybe the Clinton-esqe part is a little over the top. But I stand by the rest of the statement.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> Every opinion I gave was backed up with a valid interpretation of scripture. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm afraid not.

 

Tuor wrote: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I never once (points finger) slept... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

 

"God's sovereignty is not at issue. The issue is our own pride in believing we must be apart of God's elect."

I don't think it is pride to know that you have security in salvation. How can we be prideful of something that was given to us. God knows our hearts, salvation has nothing to do with pride but about humility. It is sad to me if you think God predestined people to go to hell. I hate the doctrine of Calvanism too, I'm sure I'm not making any friends on this board but why in the world would God send Jesus to give his life on the cross to pay for our sins if it doesn't matter anyway, if some will go to heaven and some will go to hell. It just doesn't make sense.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:
... why in the world would God send Jesus to give his life on the cross to pay for our sins if it doesn't matter anyway, if some will go to heaven and some will go to hell. It just doesn't make sense.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only way that anyone could be saved was for God to pay their debt. The reason why hell is eternal is because sin creates an infinite debt to God. Because Christ was infinite in his righteousness, he could pay it with his death.

Secondly, the only way that anyone could be saved is for God to unilaterally step in to intervene in man's self-destructive tendencies. Man, left to himself, will continue down a path of rejection of God. He does not want to do anything else. It is only when God steps in to change him that man responds in faith and repentance.

You ask, Why did God send Jesus to die if some were going to go to heaven and some were going to go to hell? The answer is because some were going to go to heaven and the debt for them must be paid.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


You ask, Why did God send Jesus to die if some were going to go to heaven and some were going to go to hell? The answer is because some were going to go to heaven and the debt for them must be paid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, but I understand that. What I meant by my comment was that God gives us a choice. We can decide ourselves whether to heed to God's calling or refuse the salvation he so freely offers. I was simply saying that man does have free will. I was trying to make a point that Jesus didn't die for just the saved people. He died for all of mankind, but only the saved are washed and made clean by the blood, the others choose to reject the atonment for sin, that doesn't mean he didn't die for them still, just that they don't accept him as their Savior.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:
I was simply saying that man does have free will. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes but that free will will always act in accordance with his nature. Since he is depraved, he will always choose to reject God. This is what Paul means by "dead in trespasses and sins."

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR> I was trying to make a point that Jesus didn't die for just the saved people. He died for all of mankind, but only the saved are washed and made clean by the blood, the others choose to reject the atonment for sin, that doesn't mean he didn't die for them still, just that they don't accept him as their Savior.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This deals with the question, Did the atonement accomplish anything or simply make it possible? I assert, with Scripture, that the atonement accomplished propitiation and salvation. It did not simply make it possible.

 

"Yes but that free will will always act in accordance with his nature. Since he is depraved, he will always choose to reject God. This is what Paul means by "dead in trespasses and sins."

Obviously I did not choose to always reject God. When I felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit in my life, I heeded to it and accepted the sacrifice for my sins. Yes I was dead in sin, but God gave me a new nature.

"This deals with the question, Did the atonement accomplish anything or simply make it possible? I assert, with Scripture, that the atonement accomplished propitiation and salvation. It did not simply make it possible."

Just because I said that the atonement made it possible for us to have life in Christ does not mean that I believe the atonement didn't accomplish propititation and salvation. Yes I think it accomplished something, it accomplished God's plan from the very beginning. Obviously I do, and that is why I believe.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tuor:

But once again I ask, where in the Bible does it say that we know for sure that we are apart of the elect that does indeed have eternal security? 2 Peter 1:10 says that we will know that we are on the road to salvation if we practice God's commands. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ephes. 2:4-8 (ESV)
But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, [5] even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— [6] and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, [7] so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. [8] For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God

Who is Paul speaking to? Believers. They were made alive by God. They are raised up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places. They were saved (past tense). It is finished. If one believes in Christ as Lord and Savior, and exhibits a faith which is not dead, then they can rest assure they are elect.

Salvation is not making a decision. It is being pre-known by the Savior, and in turn knowing Him. If one knows intimately Jesus Christ, then their election is sure.

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Confessing Jesus Christ as Lord means more than just a verbal acknowledgement.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed, and I have never said differently.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:

Obviously I did not choose to always reject God. When I felt the conviction of the Holy Spirit in my life, I heeded to it and accepted the sacrifice for my sins. Yes I was dead in sin, but God gave me a new nature.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have correctly argued against your own position. You did not always reject God BECAUSE He regenerated you, gave you a new nature and you responded to his irresistible call of salvation. You could only respond because he called you to salvation. Salvation is from above, not from below.

John 3:3;21 (ESV)
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been carried out in God.

 

"You have correctly argued against your own position. You did not always reject God..."

When did I say I always rejected God

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kellisa:
I know many people who refuse his "irresistible call of salvation". How can you say it is irresistable. Yes I agree it is from above, but we can resist it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No one ever resists the effectual call. That is why it is effectual. It accomplishes its intent. What people resist is the general call that goes out to all.

 

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pastor Larry:


No one ever resists the effectual call. That is why it is effectual. It accomplishes its intent. What people resist is the general call that goes out to all.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you are saying those who accept Christ as their Saviour are answering to a different call than the call given to all?

[ February 08, 2002: Message edited by: Kellisa ]