DHK, not being foolish , the real foolishness lies with those who can't agree on Holy Scripture ie Protestantism. Jesus commanded his followers to maintain the same doctrine, Protestantism is all over the board. Look at what Jesus said He wants, He wants unity, to unify all of us, He said He would send the Holy Spirit to dwell in His Body, which is the Church [ No and I do not mean a "building" ] uniting the members with one another and with Himself, the Head of the Body. Read { Eph.4:3-6 ]. Like I said, either the Holy Spirit that is guiding Protestants is confused on interpretation or the Protestants are confused on interpretation. I believe it is not the Holy Spirit. Confusion and conflict are weaknesses of "mere"-man.
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False Christs
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
In the quote above the entire point supposedly coming from Ignatius in favor not of "catholic" but of "THE Catholic Church" is highlighted in red.
The author of that post "expects" us to believe that his own insertion of "upper case for Catholic" - is to be attributed to Ignatius, as if his source is in fact reliable right down to upper case "Catholic"
That is your "first clue' that you are being fed some "hay and stubble"
When someone runs away from the Bible to some spurious documents in later centuries -- you have your "first clue' that they are promoting rank error.
Who is it that gave the world the well-known forgery "The Donation of Constantine" to prop up the civil claims made by the Papacy? The RCC of course.
And in the case above - another appeal to dubious material - to replace the "lack" of Bible support for the cause taken up in that post.
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PreachTony
Active Member
Coming from an SDA?!? That's fantastic. :applause: [/sarcasm]
Concerning salvation evangelical churches are united.
Concerning salvation the RCC is lost. They don't know what it is.
Concerning other doctrines the RCC believes doctrines that are: extra-biblical, unbiblical, and even anti-biblical.
Many of them have already been listed for you. You go directly against the Ten Commandments.
Idolatry (worship of Mary and other saints)
necromancy (praying to the dead)
--In the OT these sins were punishable by death.
All of the many sins or doctrines related to Mary
--her birth--immaculate conception: heresy.
--her continual virginity: her children are mentioned in the Bible.
--her assumption into heaven--no biblical or historical basis. It only became accepted as a doctrine in the RCC in 1950. (the changing facade of the RCC)
--her position in heaven: redemptrix, intercessor, (taking the place of Christ)
Purgatory
mortal, venial sins, etc. There is no division of sins.
confession of sins to a priest. Only Christ can forgive sins.
Baptismal regeneration.
transubstantiation.
"the sacrifice of the mass" an abomination before God.
"last rites" It won't do any good at that point in one's life.
celibacy of the priesthood. According to 1Tim.4:1-5, it is a doctrine of demons.
indulgences
There are many more. Those are just the ones that I can think of off the top of my head.
No evangelical church believes in such a laundry list of so many heretical anti-biblical doctrines that in no way can be defended by the Scriptures.
When you see differences here on the board, or in evangelical churches at least they are "biblical" differences. For example, both Calvinism and Arminianism have a biblical foundation to them which both sides defend. Your doctrines are founded on Tradition, the imagination of men, and superstition. Many of them originate in paganism have no connection to Christianity at all.
That is why the RCC is closer to a cult rather than actual Christianity.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
1. The RCC is the source of myriad schism all through the centuries.
2. What Protestants do not have 66 books in the bible?
3. Are we to condemn the RCC until the church of England, the Lutheran church, the EO etc all agree to worship Mary or the Papacy in total doctrinal harmony??
DHK, you mentioned "Salvation", that Catholics don't know what it is. Do you know that there was one instance in Jesus’ ministry of Him being asked directly what one must do to have eternal life? Just one. And what do you think Jesus said? Well, according to your theology, He must have said, “You don’t have to DO anything to have eternal life, just believe in Me.” Funny thing, though, the Gospels don’t agree with your theology. Jesus said, “If you would enter life, keep the commandments.” So, who should I believe: you, or Jesus? And, is keeping the commandments a one–time event?
Furthermore, let me ask you this: Can you get into Heaven if you do not forgive the sins of others? Remember, now, most of you here on this forum have said it is Jesus and Jesus alone, we don’t have to do anything to be saved, right? “Christianity is Jesus plus nothing,” right? So, please answer the question and I will prove your theology wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.
You got saved reading the Bible, eh? So does that make you better than me…better than Catholics? Can you give me one instance, from Scripture, of someone who was saved by reading the Bible? I'll repeat this again, you do realize, that the early Christians were not saved by reading the Bible, right? They were saved by men who were indeed interested in promoting a Church…the Church founded by Jesus Christ. I am interested in the truths of His Church, because they are the truths of Jesus Christ as given to His Apostles and as handed down by the Apostles to us throughout the centuries by His Church. All Christians, in fact, owe a deep debt of gratitude to His Church, the Church that Jesus founded on His Apostles/Successors, and I will prove it:
Here is an example.You believe the Gospel of Mark was written by a man named Mark and that this man named Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write his gospel, correct? Well, did the Bible tell you that or did some man tell you that? If the Bible told you that, then please give me book, chapter, and verse that says such a thing? Please answer the question: Who wrote the Gospel of Mark, and how do you know? And how do you know that the Gospel of Mark is indeed the inspired Word of God? Who told you? I think that would be a very interesting answer for all those reading this email to see and ponder.
BobRyan and DHK,I am going to let your remarks about Mary and Purgatory and the rest go for now, because they are based, again, on half–truths and outright lies that people have told for centuries about the Catholic Faith. I will be happy to re–visit those topics later. I’ll conclude here, though, by just repeating the questions that I have asked, and I pray that you will do your best to answer them directly and without obfuscation. I know, however, that you will be unable to do so.
Furthermore, let me ask you this: Can you get into Heaven if you do not forgive the sins of others? Remember, now, most of you here on this forum have said it is Jesus and Jesus alone, we don’t have to do anything to be saved, right? “Christianity is Jesus plus nothing,” right? So, please answer the question and I will prove your theology wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt.
You got saved reading the Bible, eh? So does that make you better than me…better than Catholics? Can you give me one instance, from Scripture, of someone who was saved by reading the Bible? I'll repeat this again, you do realize, that the early Christians were not saved by reading the Bible, right? They were saved by men who were indeed interested in promoting a Church…the Church founded by Jesus Christ. I am interested in the truths of His Church, because they are the truths of Jesus Christ as given to His Apostles and as handed down by the Apostles to us throughout the centuries by His Church. All Christians, in fact, owe a deep debt of gratitude to His Church, the Church that Jesus founded on His Apostles/Successors, and I will prove it:
Here is an example.You believe the Gospel of Mark was written by a man named Mark and that this man named Mark was inspired by the Holy Spirit to write his gospel, correct? Well, did the Bible tell you that or did some man tell you that? If the Bible told you that, then please give me book, chapter, and verse that says such a thing? Please answer the question: Who wrote the Gospel of Mark, and how do you know? And how do you know that the Gospel of Mark is indeed the inspired Word of God? Who told you? I think that would be a very interesting answer for all those reading this email to see and ponder.
BobRyan and DHK,I am going to let your remarks about Mary and Purgatory and the rest go for now, because they are based, again, on half–truths and outright lies that people have told for centuries about the Catholic Faith. I will be happy to re–visit those topics later. I’ll conclude here, though, by just repeating the questions that I have asked, and I pray that you will do your best to answer them directly and without obfuscation. I know, however, that you will be unable to do so.
And that rich young ruler of Mark chapter ten went away sorrowful. He could not keep the Ten Commandments. It was impossible. Jesus said "This do keep the commandments and thou shalt live. (But it is impossible and our Lord knew that).
However, the young man answered and said: "All these things I have kept from my youth up." This was a lie. No man can keep the Ten Commandments. Christ proceeded to show him how he had not kept the Ten Commandments, how he even now was breaking the commandment of covetousness.
He walked away sorrowful, "for he coveted his riches more than he coveted or desired God." Christ had clearly made his point. And that is what you don't understand about that incident.
Forgiving the sins of others is not the basis of salvation. Christ is.
Jesus said: "I am the way, the truth and the life; no man comes to the Father but by me."
Did Jesus lie in John 14:6? What do you think? Will you prove him to be a liar?
Christ saved me by his grace. I used to be a Catholic. I was not and am not better. Catholicism is a religion based on works. It is anti-biblical and because it does not preach a biblical salvation it sends people to hell.
I am a sinner saved by the grace of God, and I know if I died right now, I would go straight to heaven. I have that assurance--an assurance I never had as a Catholic; an assurance no Catholic can have. Otherwise they would stop going to Confession.
Yes, many. But you don't need their names.
However, here is the testimony, at least in part, of the famous missionary, Hudson Taylor:
http://missionsbox.org/missionary-bio/hudson-taylor/
The tract that he was reading was mostly scripture about the blood of Christ.
Paul traveled on 3 missionary journeys and started over 100 different local churches. That in and of itself should tell you what the early Christians did. He taught Timothy and Titus to do the same thing. Read 2Tim.2:2.
But you are not interested in the truth.
There is no "His Church." "Church" is the English word from "ekklesia" the Greek word for "assembly." The early Christians only knew of assemblies, not denominations or large organizations that permeate your mind.
No they aren't. You don't even have a Biblical concept of a church; a correct understanding of what a church is.
Not the RCC. They have blood on their hands for murdering true believers in Christ. They are apostates.
First, if you don't want to believe that Mark is part of the Word of God, then that is up to you. It is a demonstration of your unbelief and lack of faith. True Christians take many things like this "by faith." Why question what has been accepted by Christians down throughout the centuries.
Is your lack of assurance both in the Bible and perhaps in Christ going to be shaken because someone just discovered "the tomb of Jesus containing his "wife Mary Magdalene" and a son as well," so says this so-called archaeologist? Things like that don't shake my faith.
However, John Mark was the son of Mary (not the mother of Jesus), a Christian Jewess who is mentioned in Acts 12:12. He is the nephew on Barnabas and went with Barnabas and Paul on their first missionary tour but turned back. That resulted in some disagreement between Paul and Barnabas over Mark's going with them on the 2nd missionary journey. However, in spite of the split, Mark was reconciled to Paul in his latter years during his first imprisonment (Col.4:10; Phile. 24).
In his first epistle Peter states that Mark is with him. Mark was known to be "the interpreter of Peter" according to tradition, and had a hand in founding the church at Alexandria.
So, Mark was with Paul during his first imprisonment in Rome (62-63 A.D.)
He was with Peter in 63 A.D. He got much of his information about Christ from Peter. He wrote the Manuscript, probably between 63-66, and no doubt it was probably read over by Peter.
"The vivid presentation of details and the vigorous action in the book suggest that the information set forth in this gospel came from an eye-witness. The view has persisted from the time of Papias that Peter was the narrator and, on authority of Clement of Alexandria, Eusebius declares that Mark's Gospel was submitted for his approval." (New Analytical Bible, John A. Dixon Publ.)
Extra and Anti-biblical heresies based on half-truths and lies?
Prove that allegation.
I was a former Catholic. It was those type of consistencies that drove me away from the RCC. They cannot be found in the Bible.
DHK, I first of all want to thank you for your well explained post on why you believe as you do along with many other Protestants, I haven't yet answered your points individually, so I will answer with this first, that you and some other Protestants believe we are saved by Faith Alone and you say Catholics believe they can “work” their way into Heaven. DHK, you mention that you are ex-Catholic so please show me where in the Catechism, the official teaching of the Catholic Church, does it teach that we can “work” our way into Heaven? I'll save you the trouble, you can’t, because it doesn’t say that. The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works...that we can “work” our way into Heaven.
Next, where in the Bible does it teach that we are saved by “faith alone.” You can’t, because it doesn’t. The only place in all of Scripture where the phrase “Faith Alone” appears, is in James...James 2:24, where it says that we are not...not...justified (or saved) by faith alone.
So, one of the two main pillars of Protestantism...the doctrine of salvation by faith alone...not only doesn’t appear in the Bible, but the Bible actually says the exact opposite - that we are not saved by faith alone. If works have nothing to do with our salvation...then how come every passage in the N.T. that I know of that talks about Judgment says we will be judged by our works, not by whether or not we have faith alone? We see this in Rom 2, Matthew 15 and 16, 1 Ptr 1, Rev 20 and 22, 2 Cor 5, and many, many more verses.
If we are saved by faith alone, why does 1 Cor 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
As Catholics we believe that we are saved by God’s grace alone. We can do nothing, apart from God’s grace, to receive the free gift of salvation. We also believe, however, that we have to respond to God’s grace. You as a Protestant believe that, too. However, many of you Protestants believe that the only response necessary is an act of faith; whereas, Catholics believe a response of faith and works is necessary...or, as the Bible puts it in Galatians 5:6, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love...faith working through love...just as the Church teaches.
Next, where in the Bible does it teach that we are saved by “faith alone.” You can’t, because it doesn’t. The only place in all of Scripture where the phrase “Faith Alone” appears, is in James...James 2:24, where it says that we are not...not...justified (or saved) by faith alone.
So, one of the two main pillars of Protestantism...the doctrine of salvation by faith alone...not only doesn’t appear in the Bible, but the Bible actually says the exact opposite - that we are not saved by faith alone. If works have nothing to do with our salvation...then how come every passage in the N.T. that I know of that talks about Judgment says we will be judged by our works, not by whether or not we have faith alone? We see this in Rom 2, Matthew 15 and 16, 1 Ptr 1, Rev 20 and 22, 2 Cor 5, and many, many more verses.
If we are saved by faith alone, why does 1 Cor 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?
As Catholics we believe that we are saved by God’s grace alone. We can do nothing, apart from God’s grace, to receive the free gift of salvation. We also believe, however, that we have to respond to God’s grace. You as a Protestant believe that, too. However, many of you Protestants believe that the only response necessary is an act of faith; whereas, Catholics believe a response of faith and works is necessary...or, as the Bible puts it in Galatians 5:6, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love...faith working through love...just as the Church teaches.
You have shown me that with your own posts. You have stated it as much.
Of course it is not by faith alone, then it is by works. You cannot see the error of your own ways.
Furthermore, all the sacraments are works.
Baptism is a work. Someone had to baptize you. It wasn't Christ or God coming down from heaven. It was a priest performing, doing the ACT or WORK of baptism upon you. It is a work.
Read Romans 5:1 and Eph.2:8,9. Try and understand them.
The judgement seat of Christ is for Christians only. The rewards they receive in heaven will be proportionate to the works they do on earth. It doesn't affect their salvation. Salvation is a gift of God. It can never be taken away from them (1Cor.3:11-15).
The Great White Throne Judgement is for all unbelievers. The fact that works are mentioned points to the fact that there may be degrees of punishment in the Lake of Fire. Each person will receive his due justice even there according to his works. But they still will be condemned to the Lake of Fire. Hard to understand? Yes.
Faith is not eternal. Faith lasts until Jesus comes. We walk by faith. When Jesus comes, who is the object of our faith, we will no longer need faith. But love will never end. It will last for eternity, therefore it is the greatest of all gifts.
One cannot separate these.
We are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Again, check and study Eph.2:8,9.
Then baptism isn't necessary to be saved is it. Neither is keeping any of the sacraments including going to mass and the ridiculous superstition of transubstantiation. These are works.
You don't respond in grace. You respond in blind faith much the same as an Islamic suicide bomber has blind faith that he will go to paradise if he blows himself up for the cause of Islam. There is no basis for his belief. There is no basis for many of your beliefs. There is no basis for baptismal regeneration nor transubstantiation. They are superstitions that you believe in. It is not grace but blind faith, just like the Islamic suicide bombers.
The grounds of our faith are:
1. The Word of God. We can establish every thing we do in the Word of God.
2. The resurrection of Christ. Christ said what he said and based what he said and what he claimed to be true on His resurrection--an undeniable fact of history that has never been unproven.
The Catholics operate by blind faith thinking that some droplets of H2O can actually save them. It is all based on superstition, not the Word of God, not even on rationality. It is insane when you really think of it in a rational way.
The single question I would ask in regards to works-based theology is this: do you believe salvation can be lost, and is this the position of Catholic Doctrine?
If you answer that salvation can be lost, then you fall into a category of works-based theology by which salvation is retained through, you guessed it...
...works.
What is your answer to the question?
God bless.
Once you are “saved,” – answered an altar call or said a sinner’s prayer and accepted Jesus into your heart as your personal Lord and Savior – then, according to your doctrine, that’s it. That’s all that needs to be done. Your train ticket to Heaven has been punched and there is nothing that can derail that train. Salvation is, in essence, a one–time event that cannot be undone. That’s why believers in this doctrine claim to have “absolute assurance” in their own salvation.
Catholics do not, however, say that they have “ absolute” assurance of salvation because we do not believe that we have the authority nor the ability to judge ourselves. Paul himself says, in 1 Cor 4:3–5, that he does not judge himself, but it is the Lord who judges him. Paul even says that he is not aware of anything against himself, yet that he is not necessarily acquitted (or saved). That doesn’t sound like absolute assurance of salvation, does it?
Also, in Phil 3:10–13 and 1 Cor 9:26–27, we don’t see Paul talking in the language of absolute assurance: ”...that, if possible, I may attain the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own…,” and ”...lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” This is not the language of absolute assurance.
God judges us, we do not judge ourselves. At any moment in our lives, we still have the free will to turn away from God and reject Him. And, if you reject God, are you still saved? Catholics don’t believe so. What we can say is that we have believed in God and have done our best to do His will for our lives (Matthew 7:21, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven,”) and that by His grace and mercy we hope in His salvation.
Man has this incredible capacity to fool himself, but he cannot fool God: “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart,” (Proverbs 21:2). That’s why we say that if we believe and do the Father’s will, then we have the hope in us that God will indeed have mercy upon us and grant us eternal life with Him in Heaven. But, we do not presume to judge when judgment is for God alone.
We also do not say we have absolute assurance of salvation because Catholics, like Paul, believe salvation is a process. We believe, as Jesus says, that in order to follow Him, we must deny ourselves and we must pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23), not just once in our lives. If we don’t pick up our cross daily, then we are not following Him. And, if we are not following Him, are we still saved? The answer is, no, we are not.
And Paul very clearly believes that salvation is a process, not a one–time event. In several places he states that we have been saved (2 Tim 1:8–9, Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5 and 8, and Titus 3:5); in other places he says that we are being saved (1 Cor 1:18 and 2 Cor 2:15), which in and of itself connotes a process of salvation; and in still other places he says we will be saved (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Tim 2:15, Rom 5:9–10, and Rom 10:9 and 13). We were saved, we are being saved, and w e will be saved…if we persevere to the end – that is the scriptural process of salvation.
Finally, for those who believe in absolute assurance, they have a bit of a problem with the whole concept of hope that we find all through the New Testament. Why are these these folks in the Scripture told to have hope rather than to trust in their absolute assurance of salvation? If they have absolute knowledge – absolute assurance – that they are saved, then they have no need for hope. The concept of hope fits perfectly with Catholic belief, but not so much with the belief in once saved always saved and this whole absolute assurance business.
To summarize: We have the assurance, based upon God’s own word, that if we follow His will for our lives, we will be saved. But, we do not have “absolute” assurance that we will be saved because we could, of our own free will, turn away from Christ at any given point in our lives.
Catholics do not, however, say that they have “ absolute” assurance of salvation because we do not believe that we have the authority nor the ability to judge ourselves. Paul himself says, in 1 Cor 4:3–5, that he does not judge himself, but it is the Lord who judges him. Paul even says that he is not aware of anything against himself, yet that he is not necessarily acquitted (or saved). That doesn’t sound like absolute assurance of salvation, does it?
Also, in Phil 3:10–13 and 1 Cor 9:26–27, we don’t see Paul talking in the language of absolute assurance: ”...that, if possible, I may attain the resurrection of the dead. Not that I have already obtained this or am already perfect; but I press on to make it my own…,” and ”...lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified.” This is not the language of absolute assurance.
God judges us, we do not judge ourselves. At any moment in our lives, we still have the free will to turn away from God and reject Him. And, if you reject God, are you still saved? Catholics don’t believe so. What we can say is that we have believed in God and have done our best to do His will for our lives (Matthew 7:21, “Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven,”) and that by His grace and mercy we hope in His salvation.
Man has this incredible capacity to fool himself, but he cannot fool God: “Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart,” (Proverbs 21:2). That’s why we say that if we believe and do the Father’s will, then we have the hope in us that God will indeed have mercy upon us and grant us eternal life with Him in Heaven. But, we do not presume to judge when judgment is for God alone.
We also do not say we have absolute assurance of salvation because Catholics, like Paul, believe salvation is a process. We believe, as Jesus says, that in order to follow Him, we must deny ourselves and we must pick up our cross daily (Luke 9:23), not just once in our lives. If we don’t pick up our cross daily, then we are not following Him. And, if we are not following Him, are we still saved? The answer is, no, we are not.
And Paul very clearly believes that salvation is a process, not a one–time event. In several places he states that we have been saved (2 Tim 1:8–9, Rom 8:24, Eph 2:5 and 8, and Titus 3:5); in other places he says that we are being saved (1 Cor 1:18 and 2 Cor 2:15), which in and of itself connotes a process of salvation; and in still other places he says we will be saved (1 Cor 3:15, 1 Cor 5:5, 1 Tim 2:15, Rom 5:9–10, and Rom 10:9 and 13). We were saved, we are being saved, and w e will be saved…if we persevere to the end – that is the scriptural process of salvation.
Finally, for those who believe in absolute assurance, they have a bit of a problem with the whole concept of hope that we find all through the New Testament. Why are these these folks in the Scripture told to have hope rather than to trust in their absolute assurance of salvation? If they have absolute knowledge – absolute assurance – that they are saved, then they have no need for hope. The concept of hope fits perfectly with Catholic belief, but not so much with the belief in once saved always saved and this whole absolute assurance business.
To summarize: We have the assurance, based upon God’s own word, that if we follow His will for our lives, we will be saved. But, we do not have “absolute” assurance that we will be saved because we could, of our own free will, turn away from Christ at any given point in our lives.
Salvation cannot be undone.
Define "eternal life" for me.
Look at my signature line:
2 Timothy 1:12 For the which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.
--It is not I, but Jesus Christ that keeps my salvation. Do you think he will fail?
Neither do you believe in the authority of the Bible. That changed when I got saved.
Paul also said:
1 Corinthians 2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
--Was he contradicting himself, or are you simply taking Scripture out of context not knowing the real meaning of it.
That is just foolishness. We know he didn't say that, that the words you are quoting are away out of context.
He also said:
Acts 24:16 And herein do I exercise myself, to have always a conscience void of offence toward God, and toward men.
--Can you say that? There is nothing that I have done that is offensive either toward God or man, always!
Here also is his testimony:
Acts 20:26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.
27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.
--Do you know ALL the counsel of God?
Concerning assurance Paul said:
2Ti 4:6-8
(6) For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand.
(7) I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith:
(8) Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.
He said:
1. I am ready to die a martyr's death (vs.6)
2. The time of my death is near (vs. 6).
3. I have fought a good fight (as he looks over his life) vs. 7
4. I have finished my course. (the work that God had given him) vs. 7
5. I have kept the faith. (full assurance) vs. 7
6. There is a crown of righteousness awaiting me. (He is certain of his eternal destiny, and not only that, he is certain of his reward in heaven) vs.8
Paul was absolutely certain and assured of his eternal destiny. That can never be denied.
This is speaking of a disqualification of service on earth, not of salvation.
Paul wrote: "There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus." NO Condemnation--None.
He could be disqualified from certain areas of service.
For example, "a bishop (pastor) must be found blameless."
That is why our pastors are not allowed to be pastors if they are found in any kind of sexual misconduct. But in the RCC they are just moved from one parish to another--another demonstration that it was never the true church.
A true believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit and will never reject Christ.
The Bible says:
Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--Tell me: Does God's Spirit bear witness with your spirit that you are a child of God? If so, how?
With a true believer there is no "if". But we can understand what happens to Catholics. I know. I was one.
Catholics do not the will of the Father. They don't know what it is.
How can you do the Father's will if you don't know what it is!
How can you be born again if you don't even know what it means?
You are deceived. Salvation is not a process; it is an event.
Only one who is saved is able to take up his cross. One must first be saved. And that is an event.
What does it mean to "take up one's cross"? I doubt if you have any idea of what that means?
This only shows that you don't understand what Paul was saying and that you have Paul contradicting himself. Was he schizophrenic, saying one thing in one place and contradicting himself in another. You first said that he believed it was an event in the past, and then denied it.
Our hope is in the coming of Christ.
Our hope is in the redemption of our bodies.
Our hope is in the resurrection.
What our hope is not in is our salvation; we know that we are saved.
You are one confused person.
You will never follow his will. You cannot keep all his commandments.
No man can. Keeping the law is an impossibility.
Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.
Works has no part in salvation; Jesus paid it all. To infer that you had any part in paying the price of his salvation for us is akin to spitting in his face and mocking him just as the Jews and Roman soldiers did 2,000 years ago. It is the greatest insult one could give to Christ--to say they could share in the work of Christ--to say they could gain heaven by their own works, when Jesus paid it all!!!!!!!!
DHK, 1 Cor 4:4–5. you see, you who believe in once saved always saved have already judged yourself as being irrevocably saved. Yet, we find in 1 Cor 4, that Paul – who if anyone was “saved” it was Paul right? – Paul does not judge himself as being saved, and he goes on to say to leave judgment for the Lord. So, anyone who judges themself as being already saved, is doing something that runs directly contrary to what Paul says here in Scripture. Oops.
PreachTony
Active Member
If you are going to quote scripture, then quote it:
Where does that say anything about the salvation of Paul?1 Corinthians 4:4-5 said:
Paul knew he was saved. He accounts it before Agrippa.
He informs Timothy quite clearly:
That doesn't sound like someone who has not judged themselves to be saved. That sounds like someone who is assured of their salvation and is prepared to enter into God's glory.2 Timothy 4:6-8 said:
PreachTony, I know that I have eternal life if I believe in the name of the Son of God. Does it say, however, that once you believe in the Son of God, you cannot ever lose your salvation? No, it doesn’t. For instance, what if you believe in the name of the Son of God, so you’re irrevocably saved – according to your theology – but then at some future point in your life, you stop believing in the name of the Son of God? Are you still saved? According to you, the answer is yes! But, according to the Bible, you can’t be saved if you don’t believe in the Son of God. You’ve got a bit of a quandary there.
PreachTony
Active Member
Lakeside - remember that we can only speak for ourselves. I can speak for no one else. I cannot give account for my parents, and they cannot give account for me.
The fact is, if someone tells me they are saved, then the most I can do is take their word for it. If they are not truly in Christ then their actions will bear it out. We will know a tree by the fruit it bears. Those of us that are truly in Christ are indeed sealed unto the day of redemption.
Stop cherry-picking. You don't quote the context; know the context, and obviously have no idea what you are talking about. Say Oops to yourself.
1Co 4:1-5
(1) Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God.
(2) Moreover it is required in stewards, that a man be found faithful.
(3) But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
(4) For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord.
(5) Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
"Let a man so account of us..."
Paul is defending himself and his apostolic authority against the false teachers who had led some of the Corinthians away into error. Remember this is a church that Paul started. He spent one and a half years laboring in Corinth. He tells them in verse 2 that a servant must be faithful (as he was, and they are not).
The false teachers had led them astray to the point where they were demanding documents--"letters of commendation," that would certify Paul as a genuine apostle and teacher.
2 Corinthians 3:1 Do we begin again to commend ourselves? or need we, as some others, epistles of commendation to you, or letters of commendation from you?
--Thus he was being judged by these false teachers and those that followed him as inferior. They were saying that his qualifications weren't good enough.
In this context Paul answers back (and perhaps with a little sarcasm)
1Co 4:3 But with me it is a very small thing that I should be judged of you, or of man's judgment: yea, I judge not mine own self.
--He spent 3 years in Arabia and received direct revelation from God.
Look at 1Cor.11:23-26. He describes the Last Supper just as it was, and quotes the words of our Lord Jesus word for word. Where did he get that from? The Lord gave it to him by direct revelation. Now who is the one that is qualified?
God chose Paul, spoke to Paul on the way to Damascus, appeared to Paul, and taught him personally giving him revelation directly. He used him to inspire 13 books of the Bible--two of them to the Corinthians. Who is the messenger of God?
"I judge not myself" IOW, it is the Lord that called me and gave me this purpose to teach you.
He then warns them. He warns them of a day that he does not fear:
1Co 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God.
--God will bring to light all their works, even what they are now trying to do to Paul. Are they ready to give account for this.
Read the context!
Now answer the rest of my post!
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
BrotherJoseph
Well-Known Member
Brother Lakeside, the scripture says"13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. " (2 Timothy 2::13), thus the answer to your question above according to the Bible is yes in verse 13! However if someone truly has the Holy Spirit, it is impossible that they will ever permanently cease to believe. You are making your arguments from hypotheticals that are impossible scenarios!
This is why your scenario is an impossibility
"
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall (NOT "MIGHT", BUT "SHALL") keep my judgments, and do them." (Ezekiel 36:26-27)
The cause of our belief is the Spirit in us, faith is the fruit of the Spirit, thus you could never "lose the Spirit" because you ceased to believe, otherwise you never had the Spirit to begin with. If you have the Spirit, you will believe because he is in you. That is why Paul states "no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost." (1 Corinthians 12:3b)
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