False Religion of Arminianism 2

[SavedByGrace]

I have plenty of posts on this site that scripturally ratify my witness

Not "ratify", but "flasify"!

 

[Reformed1689]

If Arminianism is a false religion, how is Calvinism not a false religion? Teaching "unconditional" election. Let alone denying the general redemption (in such passages as Romans 5:8).

Romans 5:8 in no way teaches general redemption.

 

[Reformed1689]

God's chosen are not indistinguishable to God. They are to us.

That I personally consider the general election a fundamental of the faith, without apology.
The definitive evidence against only limited atonement.

I do not deny the truth of particular redumption either.

You can't affirm both....

 

[Reformed1689]

So what is the person who is not a believer who hears Romans 5:8 in a simple public reading going understand it to claim to mean? What does it simply say to a hearer? My exegesis.

Here is the nonsense of this. In high school if a teacher caught us passing a note they would take it and read it out loud to the class. With your logic a teacher reads a not from a boy to his girlfriend and it says I love you and that must mean he loves every girl who hears the note read in public. That is literally what you are claiming.

 

[Silverhair]

Where is "general" redemption ever found? It's certainly not in Romans 5:7-8.
For one will scarcely die for a righteous person—though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die— but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

This is a very particular redemption. Nothing general about it. The "us" in this verse is those whom God has chosen to redeem.

Let's look further to verses 9-11
Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. More than that, we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.

Is there any "general" redemption here? No! It is very specific and particular.

General Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Are you saying that some people are not part of the ungodly?

 

[atpollard]

Jesus did not teach that, but rather, [NKJV,] ' - “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. '

MGNT vs TR.

 

[Reformed1689]

General Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Are you saying that some people are not part of the ungodly?

Where does that say ALL of the ungodly?

 

[atpollard]

look that the context!

verse 4, "knowing this first, that in the last days mockers will come, walking after their own lusts"

verse 7, "But the heavens that exist now and the earth, by the same word have been stored up for fire, being reserved against the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men"

Are these the "elect"?

Verse 9 FOLLOWS these verses, and says

"The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but he is patient with YOU (as in verses 4 and 7), not wishing that anyone should perish, but that all should come to repentance"

WHY would the Lord need to be PATIENT for the "elect" to repent, because they WILL, according to your system?

WHY would it say, that God is not willing that any of the "elect" no perish, when they CANNOT, according to your system?

You see, IF you can, the Infallibe Word of God is AGAINST your theology!

So the “you” of 2 Peter 3:9 are the “mockers” and “ungodly men” … is that your official position?

 

[atpollard]

General Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Are you saying that some people are not part of the ungodly?

That is getting to the heart of Limited vs General Atonement.
Did Christ die for ALL the ungodly (those destined for eternity in Heaven and those destined for eternity in Hell) or did Christ die for those ungodly destined for eternity in Heaven only?
Can that hair be split with this verse (and it’s immediate context) alone?

I do not believe that this nuance can be determined from the verse, so it is improper to just assume it means “all ungodly without exception”. We KNOW the “WE” and”US” of the proximate verses includes Paul and the Saints in Rome to whom he is writing.

 

[SavedByGrace]

So the “you” of 2 Peter 3:9 are the “mockers” and “ungodly men” … is that your official position?

It is EVERYONE including them and every single human being

 

[SavedByGrace]

General Rom 5:6 For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.

Are you saying that some people are not part of the ungodly?

Yes the Calvinists are not part of the ungodly

 

[DaveXR650]

So why would said hearers not consider themselves as not one for whom Christ is claimed to have die, ". . . while we were yet sinners . . . ." No reason at all.

We don't have any right to consider ourselves elect or non elect as hearers. What we do have is a promise that if we repent and believe God will save us. A "Calvinist" who goes so far in thinking he's protecting God's sovereignty that he declares that WE don't have to repent and believe the gospel is doing a great disservice. But someone who, when they hear the gospel begins by judging God on whether the terms are fair or not for everyone possibly has a problem not with the theology of the extent of the atonement - but with what their true condition is as a sinner.

 

[Reformed1689]

Here is the nonsense of this. In high school if a teacher caught us passing a note they would take it and read it out loud to the class. With your logic a teacher reads a not from a boy to his girlfriend and it says I love you and that must mean he loves every girl who hears the note read in public. That is literally what you are claiming.

@SavedByGrace you put a funny rating on this post. Please explain how this is not what @37818 is doing.

 

[DaveXR650]

It is funny but it's a good illustration.

 

[SavedByGrace]

@SavedByGrace you put a funny rating on this post. Please explain how this is not what @37818 is doing.

Which part of what was said is nonsense

 

[Reformed1689]

Which part of what was said is nonsense

The part where he said that if an unsaved person reads it and assumes it applies to them specifically it must be so. Romans was written to people who were already saved, not the unsaved.

 

[SavedByGrace]

The part where he said that if an unsaved person reads it and assumes it applies to them specifically it must be so. Romans was written to people who were already saved, not the unsaved.

Romans might be addressed to the believers at the church, but no doubt as in every church there are many who are not really saved. These also hear the Words and can apply them to themselves. I see no problem with this as the Gospel Message is for the entire human race

 

[Silverhair]

Where does that say ALL of the ungodly?

So you think some people are not ungodly? Once again I have to question your reading ability. Or should I say your unwillingness to accept what the text says.

 

[Silverhair]

That is getting to the heart of Limited vs General Atonement.
Did Christ die for ALL the ungodly (those destined for eternity in Heaven and those destined for eternity in Hell) or did Christ die for those ungodly destined for eternity in Heaven only?
Can that hair be split with this verse (and it’s immediate context) alone?

I do not believe that this nuance can be determined from the verse, so it is improper to just assume it means “all ungodly without exception”. We KNOW the “WE” and”US” of the proximate verses includes Paul and the Saints in Rome to whom he is writing.

My question for you is "what in this verse would make you think it was limited to just the so called elect"? That is something that you have to read into the text.

 

[AustinC]

My question for you is "what in this verse would make you think it was limited to just the so called elect"? That is something that you have to read into the text.

Keep reading the letter. When you get to chapter 8, tell us if it's "so called" elect that are being addressed.