Falwell: Jews can get to Heaven without Christ

While this has nothing to do with the OP, or your lack of providing quotes from Hagee stating he believes in DCT, it is not left to you to decide what is "good" in each Christian's eye. If a prayer shawl is worn to show that the "Law" saves, it is wrong. If it is worn as a reminder to pray, I have no problem with that.

Ceremonial? No. Moral? Yes. Civil? Yes.

Why...because boanerges says it's not "good"? </font>[/QUOTE]Ok webdog. I understand clearly now why you like Mr Hagee. Mixing a little law and grace. I didn't provide any more quotes, because Ms Marcia was nice enough to do so. I guess hers aren't acceptable either. So if you wear a shawl webdog, will you cut the fringes off also? Since it is a Jewish custom to do so once someone is no longer under the law (dead). Problem is, Mr Hagee was selling them to Christians with the tzit tzit on them. I think that the church needs to learn a little bit more about Judaism, before they start adopting the things of Judaism. Modern Judaism and Christianity are two separate and distinct religions.Ask any Jew, and they will be happy to tell you. </font>[/QUOTE]I am saved by grace...not Law. You seem to have a legalistic problem with tzit tzit's than the condition of people's hearts.
As far as law goes, tell me that we are not under all of the following except the Sabbath, which is ceremonial:
Exo 20:3 Do not have other gods besides Me.
Exo 20:4 Do not make an idol for yourself, whether in the shape of anything in the heavens above or on the earth below or in the waters under the earth.
Exo 20:5 You must not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the fathers' sin, to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,
Exo 20:6 but showing faithful love to a thousand generations of those who love Me and keep My commands.
Exo 20:7 Do not misuse the name of the LORD your God, because the LORD will punish anyone who misuses His name.
Exo 20:8 Remember to dedicate the Sabbath day:
Exo 20:9 You are to labor six days and do all your work,
Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. You must not do any work--you, your son or daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the foreigner who is within your gates.
Exo 20:11 For the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and everything in them in six days; then He rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and declared it holy.
Exo 20:12 Honor your father and your mother so that you may have a long life in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.
Exo 20:13 Do not murder.
Exo 20:14 Do not commit adultery.
Exo 20:15 Do not steal.
Exo 20:16 Do not give false testimony against your neighbor.
Exo 20:17 Do not covet your neighbor's house. Do not covet your neighbor's wife, his male or female slave, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

 

I never claimed to like him. I am against second hand slander of a brother in Christ.

More second hand sources. I have been to Hagee's website. Nothing there promotes DCT.

 

Oh....and webdog,

While we are chatting and such, let's discuss the SBC's statement about targeting the Jews for conversion. The SBC would do well to learn a little more about Judaism before making such claims publicly. All they did by this was make the Jews angry. How would you feel if the Muslims issued a statement saying that they were "targeting" the SBC members for conversion to Islam? The SBC's job is to preach the Gospel (not the Passion Movie, Narnia, etc ad nauseum), and the Holy Spirit will do the rest.

 

I would suggest you open a new thread, and not hijack this one. That would be a good topic to discuss on the BB.

 

Thanks ScottJ for the article and the site.

 

You start it, and I will be more than happy to sound off.

 

Hagee said, “All people will gain entrance into heaven through Christ."

Now, what is it ya'll are arguing about again??

 

Amen

 

OK--here's the deal. I am a born again, blood washed Jewish believer in Jesus Christ--been saved for 32 years as of yesterday.

I attended a Messianic Jewish Congregation for a number of years before I got worn out from their legalism. Gentiles were trying to become "Jewish"--wearing the tallit (with the tzit tzit), etc. It offended me as a Jew--but more than that, it offended me because these Gentiles were born again and were really making an all out effort to become "wannabe" Jews. I even know a Gentile friend who started his own Messianic Congregation and went through all the ceremonial stuff to convert to Judaism--and not Messianic--Rabbinic Judaism. This did not make him Jewish---it made him a "legalistic wannabe Jew" who wanted the best of two worlds--to be a member of the body of Christ/Messiah and to be Jewish. The last time I heard, he was still Gentile--trying to be Jewish. He will remain Gentile unless he gets a blood transfusion!

There ya go!

 

The actual article from the Houston Chronicle:

http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl?id=1988_540301

Paper: HOUSTON CHRONICLE
Date: SAT 04/30/1988
Section: Religion
Page: 1
Edition: 2 STAR

San Antonio fundamentalist battles anti-Semitism

By JULIA DUIN, Houston Chronicle Religion Writer
Staff

John Hagee, fundamentalist pastor from San Antonio and friend of Israel, is truly a strange fish.

Although a Christian minister, he celebrates Passover and the Feast of Tabernacles, buys Israeli bonds and plants trees in Israel through the Jewish National Fund. He has raised $225,000 for Hadassah, a Jewish women's Zionist organization. He's been to Israel eight times. He's even visited Dachau.

Rabbi Jack Segal of Houston's Congregation Beth Yeshurun, one of Hagee's fans, calls the pastor "a courageous soldier in God's army." Mayor Kathy Whitmire proclaimed Nov. 17, 1984, "Pastor John Hagee Day." The "Jewish Herald Voice" ran a rave review of Hagee last fall on its editorial page.

Hagee, 48, was in town last week at a meeting for young Jewish leaders sponsored by the Anti-Defamation League of B'nai B'rith. He'll be back in town June 23 at Beth Yeshurun for a "night to honor Israel" celebration. He is pastor of the 9,600-member Cornerstone Church in northern San Antonio, a plush white brick edifice dubbed the "South Texas Vatican" by locals.

How did a homegrown boy (Hagee grew up in Baytown and Houston) make it with the Jews?

Simple: The man has a mission. He's out to attack anti-Semitism. He also believes that Jews can come to God without going through Jesus Christ.

He also believes that someday Jews will claim title to a vast area promised them in Genesis and Deuteronomy that encompasses territory from the Mediterranean to the Euphrates River in Iraq. Israel has a divine right to occupy the West Bank, he says.

This is a sharp contrast to positions taken by several mainline denominations that the Palestinians should have their own nation on the West Bank and that Scripture doesn't necessarily promise the land to the Jews. To back his contentions, Hagee cites Romans 9-11, calling the chapters "God's position paper on the Jewish people."

"Christianity has a great debt of gratitude toward the Jewish people," the minister said. "The Jewish people gave us the word of God. They gave us the prophets, the patriarchs, the first family: Mary, Joseph and a very prominent Jewish rabbi, Jesus Christ. What kind of faith or foundation would we have without the Jews? Honoring the Jewish people is a very rootstock principle in Christianity."

Hagee has appeared at six "nights to honor Israel" since September 1981. Such overtures to the Jewish community have brought him death threats. After his station wagon's windows were shot out before one rally, Hagee moved into a high-security neighborhood and hired two bodyguards to accompany him during Sunday services.

"I'm not trying to convert the Jewish people to the Christian faith," he said. "There is nothing in the `night to honor Israel' that does that."

In fact, trying to convert Jews is a "waste of time," he said. "The Jewish person who has his roots in Judaism is not going to convert to Christianity. There is no form of Christian evangelism that has failed so miserably as evangelizing the Jewish people. They (already) have a faith structure."

Everyone else, whether Buddhist or Baha'i, needs to believe in Jesus, he says. But not Jews. Jews already have a covenant with God that has never been replaced by Christianity, he says.

"The Jewish people have a relationship to God through the law of God as given through Moses," Hagee said. "I believe that every Gentile person can only come to God through the cross of Christ. I believe that every Jewish person who lives in the light of the Torah, which is the word of God, has a relationship with God and will come to redemption.

"The law of Moses is sufficient enough to bring a person into the knowledge of God until God gives him a greater revelation. And God has not," said Hagee, giving hisinterpretation of Romans 11:25. "Paul abandoned the idea (of Jews knowing Christ). In the book of Romans, he said, `I am now going to go to the Gentiles from this time forward.' Judaism doesn't need Christianity to explain its existence. But Christianity has to have Judaism to explain its existence."

His position is a little unusual for evangelicals, who believe that the new covenant does supersede the old. Those who disagree with him are scathingly termed as "replacement theologians." The San Antonio pastor says such persons are anti-Semitic.

Curiously, mainliners who would disagree with Hagee's position on Israel's divine right to land would agree with him on a new covenant versus the old. Last June, the 1.7-million-member United Church of Christ denounced past persecution of Jews by Christians and stressed: "Judaism has not been superseded by Christianity... Christianity is not to be understood as the successor religion to Judaism; God's covenant with the Jewish people has not been abrogated."

Similiarly, the 3-million-member Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) at its General Assembly approved a document for study that also said Christianity had not replaced Judaism.

Opponents say such a theory is a form of universalism, which means that all religions are equivalent. In the past, Christianity has stressed that Jesus Christ is the only way to God, for Jews as well as non-Jews.

Hagee disputes suggestions that his eventual agenda includes the conversion of Jews to Christianity. Even the Apostle Paul didn't promise that, he says.

"Paul says Jews are chosen of God, loved of God, have not been replaced by the Christian church, are still in the economy of God and that some Jewish people have a relationship with God right now through divine election and that all Israel would be saved," he said.

However, many Christian theologians are anti-Semitic, he says, because they say the covenant with the Jews is gone, that Jews have been replaced by Christianity and that Israel does not deserve American military and financial support.

"There's an anti-Semitism growing in the evangelical church to a dangerous proportion," he said. "And I'm writing books and crisscrossing the country trying to bring anti-Semitism in this country to a standstill."


Copyright notice: All materials in this archive are copyrighted by Houston Chronicle Publishing Company Division, Hearst Newspapers Partnership, L.P., or its news and feature syndicates and wire services. No materials may be directly or indirectly published, posted to Internet and intranet distribution channels, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed in any medium. Neither these materials nor any portion thereof may be stored in a computer except for personal and non-commercial use.

 

There ya go again Eloi. Quoting real newspapers and hurting everyone's "feelings". Are you intentionally trying to make webdog howl?

 

You know Linda, I appreciate your frankness. This is what I have observed as well.I have seen many a gentile believer end up converting to Judaism, because they were led to believe that they weren't "Jewish" enough, and that after all, Jesus was a Jew. The funny part, is that today's modern Judaism only remotely resembles the first century "Judaism" that Jesus was a part of.

 

Jerry Falwell denies that he holds to a dual covenant, and John Hagee says he never told the Jerusalem post that Falwell does.

The Baptist Press has a report:

http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?ID=22767

Also at www.falwell.com

 

There ya go again Eloi. Quoting real newspapers and hurting everyone's "feelings". Are you intentionally trying to make webdog howl? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm supposed to take anything seriously from an article that starts out like this?

Stop posting second hand sources or quotes most likely ripped from their original context as the media is so good at. Hagee himself has said he never believed DCT, or no mention of DCT can be found anywhere on his site .

 

There ya go again Eloi. Quoting real newspapers and hurting everyone's "feelings". Are you intentionally trying to make webdog howl? </font>[/QUOTE]I'm supposed to take anything seriously from an article that starts out like this?

Stop posting second hand sources or quotes most likely ripped from their original context as the media is so good at. Hagee himself has said he never believed DCT, or no mention of DCT can be found anywhere on his site . </font>[/QUOTE]Denial is not a river in Egypt, but it seems like it is a wide river for a webdog to cross.

 

Hagee is a demoniac. He is a false prophet of the worst sort.

 

We need to pray for Hagee, Falwell, Copeland, all who proclaim Christ but are not teaching the full counsel of God

 

I really don't understand why so many God fearing Baptists waste such surmountable amounts of time on apostates!

I understand Jude 22 to be towards apostates in the form of compassion, but these yall keep wasting redeemable time on are way past God's deadlines.

 

I'm sorry what apostasy has Falwell taught?

 

apostasy = dessertion of the faith.

If Falwell is teaching that the Jewish nation does not need to be preached to, that they will all be saved anyway outside of Christ, then he is teaching a heretical doctrine. We are to go out into the world and teach every creature. Every man, woman or child needs to hear the Word of God... regardless of race.