Fatalism and the Westminster Confession

God saying something will happen puts it in his plan for what will happen. I'm not going to use the term creation blueprint, because I have no idea what it means. But if the Godhead, before creation, decided together how history would play out (and they did--there is a counsel of his will, and it includes all things), then every event that they decided would happen, will happen. God can't be wrong, can he?

They are the same thing. God speaking something ensures that it will take place, doesn't it? He doesn't have to directly cause it--it can happen by means of his permission--but it will still surely happen.

I'm answering all your questions. Why aren't you answering mine? I've bolded the questions in this post. Answer them please.

And here are the questions from my previous post:

Okay, so when God told Moses that Pharoah wouldn't let the people go until God had slain the firstborn of all Egypt, didn't that mean it was certain that Pharoah wouldn't let the people go until children had died?

At the same time, Pharoah wasn't compelled to be that stubborn, was he?

Would you answer them, too?

 

Hi Russel

No It doesn't Gen 6 say's God was going to detroy all life but He didn't. He didn't because He realize that Noah was a righteous man.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

So let's see if I have this right. God said, "“I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—everything from mankind to animals, including creatures that move on the ground and birds of the air, for I regret that I have made them.”

But at that point, he hadn't really thought about how righteous Noah was, but once that thought entered his mind he decided that he's better go back on his word, and not do what he'd said he'd do. Is that really the way you want to interpret this passage?

Doesn't that make God contradict himself? Doesn't God tell us that if he has spoken, he will bring it to pass? That when he formulates a plan, he carries it out?

Wouldn't it be better to interpet it as scripture itself does, and see wiping out mankind and all the creatures as being fulfilled just as it is spoken by God even though God saved a few of the men and a few of the animals.

Even as God is giving Noah his instructions, he tells him that he will wipe out everything:

“Come into the ark, you and all your household, for I consider you godly among this generation. You must take with you seven of every kind of clean animal, the male and its mate, two of every kind of unclean animal, the male and its mate, and also seven of every kind of bird in the sky, male and female, to preserve their offspring on the face of the earth. For in seven days I will cause it to rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the ground every living thing that I have made.”

And when it's all over, scripture tell us that God had done as he said, he'd "destroyed every living thing that was on the surface of the ground, including people, animals, creatures that creep along the ground, and birds of the sky."

 

ILL,
Nice eisogesis again... Nowhere does it state that God didn't do what he planned... As God was stating the punishment of every living thing He knew Noah and His plan for him. Nowhere did it say that God "Changed His Mind" because He forgot about Noah. I hope He doesn't have that oversight when He judges us! By the way, billions of people destroyed and only eight saved... How "unjust" of you "loving" God.

 

Poor Ben, Can't have a God that controls every quantum formula and every destiny. What a weak, powerless, confused god. Enjoy your journey with Greg Boyd to dualism my friend.

 

Hi Russel;

You tell me;
Gen 6:7 And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
This verse says he will destroy man from off the face of the earth both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air;

Then in the next sentence;
Gen 6:8 But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
God provided a way to save Noah and some of the animals. But He just got through saying he would destroy man and beast all life.

Scripture it self doesn't interpret it that way Russel. You do, because you won't look at what the Bible says. You have a preconceived idea which clouds the scripture it self.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Are you reading the same scripture I am, the one where God confirms that he had indeed destroyed every living thing from the face of the earth AFTER he'd already saved Noah and the arkful of animals? God himself, right in the scripture, interprets what he did, including saving Noah, as the fulfillment of what he'd initially said he'd do. READ IT.

The words of scripture mean what they mean in context, not what they mean when they are ripped from their context. Looking at the context carefully is part of what it takes to look at what the Bible says.

Really? Deciding beforehand to let scripture speak for itself IN CONTEXT is a preconcieved idea? Cute. I guess it is, but it's a preconceived idea that you might want to adopt.

 

Okay, let me lay it out for you.

God speaking at the start of the story of the flood:

I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—everything from mankind to animals, including creatures that move on the ground and birds of the air

God speaking 7 days before the flood:

For in seven days I will cause it to rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the ground every living thing that I have made.

Directly after the flood, the scripture tells us:

So the Lord destroyed every living thing that was on the surface of the ground, including people, animals, creatures that creep along the ground, and birds of the sky. They were wiped off the earth.

Where is the change in plans? I see plan expressed, plan confirmed, and plan carried out.

 

Hi Russel;
Was Noah killed? No he wasn't. and Noah was still on the earth. Where does it say God lifted Noah off the earth if your thinking he did that with water then your mistaken. Water is part of the earth's makeup. Noah was right here on earth the whole time. Not all was destroyed as spoken if so then we don't exist.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Still trying to make God a liar huh ILL?
In the context ILL there is a continuance in thought. BUT God found Noah,.... it is AS HE WAS making the command. It is accepted in EVERY SCHOLARLY realm that the grammer indicates this is not even close to being a contradiction even though you would love to see God's Word to be so... You should be ashamed of yourself. I can easily say I am not going to put a post on ANY forum on this site ever. But I will just put them on John P.'s replies. That is the same thought continued and does not contradict or rule out my promise not to post on any other forum. Please... This is silly at best and blasphemous at worst... Do you really want your God to be untrustworthy? I know you don't want Him in control so that is probably your next step in heresy. When are you going to go down with Greg Boyd and start tapmpering with dualism... Hmmm First God is All knowing, all powerful God, then He's not all powerful, then He's not all knowing, then He's equally powerful with Satan since He doesn't know completely what will happen and then you'll have good ol' Satan worship... nice slope to slide on...

 

You are absolutely right. And yet, even after the flood, with Noah still on the earth, Genesis tells us that every living thing, including people, animals, creeping creatures and birds, were wiped off the face of the earth. They had been destroyed by God. Was this a lie?

Please answer the bold question.

 

Hi Russel;

Was this a Lie? Well I'm not with out words let's put it that way.
Is it a lie that not everyone was wiped off the face of the earth? One way or the other it would seem something is wrong wouldn't you agree? If man was not wiped off the earth then what.
What happened was, God Changed His mind. This is what repentance is, a change of mind. You can say He was sorry but being sorry for one's actions is a change of mind because if you knew for a fact you would regret it, you would not have done it. I can say I have not done anything that I didn't think I could get away with. God I'm sure when He said;
"I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them."

He meant it He was going to do just that but your interpretation leaves God with out the freedom to change His mind. Your interpretation makes God's plans able to with stand His own will. Which makes His plan more powerful than God. You cannot place God in a box and make Him do tricks.

Really, where and in what circumstances?In Gen.6 We both see clearly what was meant but never the less what was said didn't happen as said. Is this God contradicting Him self? I can't say for sure. I can say that God didn't follow through with what He had in mind because Noah found grace in His eyes. To deny this is denying scripture.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

You are not dealing with the text. After the flood, God said he HAD WIPED EVERYONE OFF THE FACE OF THE EARTH. (See Genesis 7:23). Did he, or did he not wipe everyone off the face of the earth?

I am saying nothing about God's freedom. I am just telling you what the text says. It says he wiped everyone off the face of the earth. READ the text.

Yikes! God doesn't contradict himself. He can't. We're told that all through the scripture.

No, to say that God didn't follow through with what he said he would do is denying scripture, because in Chapter 7 he tells us exactly what he had done. Read for yourself:

So the Lord destroyed every living thing that was on the surface of the ground, including people, animals, creatures that creep along the ground, and birds of the sky. They were wiped off the earth. (Genesis 7: 23)

It this verse a lie?

 

Hi Russel;

What you want is for me to call God a liar so lets put that shoe on your foot. Did God destroy all man? If you say yes your a liar if you say no your a liar.

This is what God said He did and it isn't destroying all men off the face of the earth because Noah and his family was still alive.
Gen 7:23 And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.
Did Noah remain yes he did, so not everyone was wipe off the earth. There is something wrong with your bible if it leaves this last part out Huh !
To say that everyone was wiped off the earth is denying scripture. Oh No what are we going to do? No matter what one way or the other your denying scripture.
It's not scripture I disagree with, it's you.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

I can prove God doesn't know what He is doing 1/2 the time ILUVLIGHT.
You remember that little incident in the Garden where God was dishing out the punishments? Well, don't spread this around just in case the snake gets a revisit, did God forget that snakes crawl on their belly's anyway?

Not only that but He did not know where the couple were even! "Where are you Adam?"
GE 3:11 And he said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"
He does not know everything does He?
GE 3:13 Then the LORD God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?"

ISA 43:25 "I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.

There He goes again. It's His age you know?
"My soul glorifies the Lord

LK 1:47 and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior,

LK 1:48 for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant.
From now on all generations will call me blessed,

LK 1:49 for the Mighty One has done great things for me--
holy is his name.

LK 1:50 His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation.

LK 1:51 He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts.

LK 1:52 He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble.

LK 1:53 He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty.

LK 1:54 He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful

LK 1:55 to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers."

Praise His Holy Name. Hallelujah!

DT 33:29 Blessed are you, O Israel! Who is like you, a people saved by the LORD? He is your shield and helper and your glorious sword. Your enemies will cower before you, and you will trample down their high places. "

johnp.

 

Hi JohnP;

That's an intresting claim but then most of your claims are along the same line. Pure nonsense.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike

 

Hi JohnP;
Thanks for the swift reply.
Mike

 

Don't mention it old chap. Only too happy to oblige.

johnp.

 

I see that we are back on the God "ordains" all things that come to pass! I can only say that this is complete unbiblical nonsense, and do indeed make God the author of sins, as He would be the cause of the sinful actions of man, having ordained them in the first place! However, to get a Calvinist to understand this, is like taking a donkey to water, and then getting it to drink! With all of their clever tricks, then cannot escape the fact that their "theology" on God fore/pre-ordaining all things, is a theology of man, and has no support from the Holy Bible, which ought to be our final authority on all that we believe and teach.

The notion that all of our sins, even those not committed as yet, and still in the future, is again nonsense. True, Jesus has paid the price for all sins of all time, in that His one sacrifice is enough to atone for every sin (except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit), and that He does not have to offer Himself yearly for our sins! But, it is very clear in Scripture, that on "If we confess our sins", that "He is faithful to forgive us". If we don't confess our sins (I mean Christians here), like stealing, adultery, and even murder, which true born-again Christians are known to have committed, then how is God going to pardon what we are not sorry about! There is no such thing as automatic forgiveness in Scripture, but that which is based upon a sorrowful heart and true repentance!