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Faulty theology pt 2
- Thread starter JonC
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This may be the clearest you have been with that first statement. However, it seems that you are differentiating between a human body, human spirit and a human soul as compared to...what...a non-human body, non-human spirit and non-human soul?
Is there an "unnatural" spirit that I am supposed to be aware of?
I believe that a human is born with a spirit that has no capacity to choose God. I believe that when Paul said we were dead in our trespasses and sins, he means we have no capacity to will ourselves to have faith and be justified. God must activate our spirit (be made alive with Christ) and give us the gift of faith so that we can believe.
The lost, therefore, have a spirit that is incapacitated to act and move toward God in repentance. The unsaved cannot make their spirits to be alive with Christ.
Odd. I have said that first statement at least 5 times. Some disagreed by insisting man has a body and soul (not body, soul, and spirit).
What you probably should be aware of is that Adam us actually never described as "spirit", "spiritual", or "spiritually alive" in the Bible (a collection of "God breathed" books some of us believe to be the authority and measure for doctrine).
The Bible does, however, state that Adam was created natural and not spiritual.
The issue is you seem not to grap how Adam could have been created as Scripture states without also being created with spiritual life and then spiritually dying.
I cannot add any more to help you out.
Like I said earlier, sometimes men do not seem to understand Scripture in itself and needs a little narrative to make sense of the Biblical text. That is fine if it is the only way you can accept Genesis 1-3.
Personally, I believe Scripture (the actual text) adequate and lacking nothing. I do not need to add a mythological "temporary spiritual life that died" because it makes sense without the addition.
I'm looking for the verse where God says "Adam was created natural, not spiritual." I can't find it.
Thus, I think you are arguing from silence.
Sometimes men make assertions as facts when they aren't. Sometimes men think they are making an intelligent argument when they are not.
Personally, I believe what God teaches in scripture, the actual word of God. I do not need to add mythological teachings that Adam had no spirit because it makes no sense that a spiritless person could be made alive with Christ.
You fool! That which you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
The first man, Adam, became a living soul. The last Adam became a life giving Spirit. But the natural, not the spiritual, is first - then the spiritual. The first man is from the earth. The second man is from heaven.
@Squire Robertsson, may I inquire if JonC is going over the line?
JonC, you do realize that in the parable of the sower, the soil is the human, not the seed. The seed is the word of God.
Second, you have just made the argument that Adam had a spirit that died and God had to make Adam alive with Christ.
There are some massive theological flaws in the above statement.
The first Adam was created and made in the image of God, which means he was created with a spirit.
The last Adam is God coming in humanity.
Both have a spirit. The first Adam's spirit was corrupted by sin. The second Adam's spirit is holy, as God is holy.
You're proposition is false.
Moreso, your theology is not Baptist theology. Your position should be shared in the other denominations forum.
You can always inquire if I, or any member has gone over the line. If you hit the report button it will not only ensure all staff members can see the issue (including @Squire Robertsson) but there will also be a report of your concern.
I have reported it.
For the record, you said that you could not find in Scripture that Adam was created natural rather than spiritual.
I was giving you the passage I was referencing - not making a comment.
That was not a proposition. It was Scripture.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Is quoting Scripture ever going over the line?
Yes, when it is being used to make a disparaging comment to another person and not as a useful argument for the topic at hand.
You said
This is the passage to which I was referring :
Then you said:
and you proceed to dispute the passage and called it false, and then suggested I be banned from the Baptist section because no Baptist believes that.
It was a quote - God's words.... Not mine...
That whole post was Scripture. Not just the first sentence.
I gave it because you said that you were unable to find any passage saying Adam was created natural rather than spiritual.
You even went through the passage stating why it was wrong!!!
Passage and version please. Then provide context with it.
I contend that your exegesis is weak at best.
1 Corinthians 15:12-28 Now if Christ is proclaimed as raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is in vain and your faith is in vain. We are even found to be misrepresenting God, because we testified about God that he raised Christ, whom he did not raise if it is true that the dead are not raised. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile and you are still in your sins. Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in Christ we have hope in this life only, we are of all people most to be pitied. But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
1 Corinthians 15:35-58 But someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?” You foolish person! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies. And what you sow is not the body that is to be, but a bare kernel, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body. For not all flesh is the same, but there is one kind for humans, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish. There are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is of one kind, and the glory of the earthly is of another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; for star differs from star in glory. So is it with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable; what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonor; it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness; it is raised in power. It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body. Thus it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being”; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit. But it is not the spiritual that is first but the natural, and then the spiritual. The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven. As was the man of dust, so also are those who are of the dust, and as is the man of heaven, so also are those who are of heaven. Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the man of heaven. I tell you this, brothers: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold! I tell you a mystery. We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed. For this perishable body must put on the imperishable, and this mortal body must put on immortality. When the perishable puts on the imperishable, and the mortal puts on immortality, then shall come to pass the saying that is written: “Death is swallowed up in victory.” “O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law. But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
It is when someone uses Scripture to deliver an insult, and then has to jump over nine verses to get to the section that he wants to misuse.
The passage is 1 Corinthians 15.
It is not exegesis but Scripture (exegesis would be my interpretation of the text).
You said that you were unable to find any passage saying that Adam was natural rather than spiritual so you thought I was arguing from silence. I gave you the passage. You rejected it.
I offered no interpretation. I gave you Scripture and you said it was theologically flawed, false, and rejected by Baptists.
This is an outright and blatantly false statement.
He said that he has looked but found no passages speaking of Adam being natural, not spiritual. I provided the verses that applied (beginning with the first dying). I did not include what did not apply.
Look.... People do not have to accept Scripture as true. BUT people need to stop asking for support of my view and then twisting what I provide to suit agendas.
1 Corinthians 15:36, KJV. 'Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die.'
[Nine verses follow]
1 Corinthians 15:45, KJV. 'And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.'
[Nine verses follow]
1 Corinthians 15:45, KJV. 'And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.'
Yes.
That which is sown natural dies and then life.
The First Adam is of the earth, the Last Adam of heaven.
Adam was created a living soul. Christ became a life giving Spirit.
First the natural, then the spiritual.
The nine verses were not being referenced.
While your post is a poor apology, I will accept it. Just be careful that you do not bear false witness against members going forward.
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