Fear and OSAS

[Yeshua1]

The pagan nations of Paul's day - chose idols and demons over the God of the Bible.

I think we all knew that.

in Christ,

Bob

what we should all know is that the jews were blind as a nation to Jesus as being the messiah, so the pnes 'cut off" were NEVER saved to start!

God had preserved a faithful remnant out from Isreal, and NONE of them were of the cut off party!

 

[Thomas Helwys]

We are born flesh, which is corruptible. That of course means the ability to be corrupted. This is why we can fall.

When we are born again, we are born of incorruptible seed. It cannot fall. The scripture says we cannot sin, because our seed remains in us.

1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
24 For all flesh is as grass, and all the glory of man as the flower of grass. The grass withereth, and the flower thereof falleth away:
25 But the word of the Lord endureth for ever. And this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you.

We were born of corruptible flesh, therefore we could fall. But when we are born again, we are washed clean (vs. 22) and married and joined to the Holy Spirit, becoming one spirit (1 Cor 6:17). Now we are born again of incorruptible seed that cannot sin and fall away in unbelief, as we are partakers of the divine nature. We are not our old man, and we are not God, but we are made from a union of our spirit and the Holy Spirit. We are a new creature. We are not God, we are individuals.

It is like a child, he is made of both his mother and his father, but he is neither, he is a new creation, and he is an individual. It is the same in the spiritual birth.

It is that part of us that is the Holy Spirit that prevents us from falling away in unbelief. It is the incorruptible seed that remains with us and abides with us forever.

Jhn 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

No one had the indwelling Holy Spirit until Jesus was raised from the dead and glorified. But Jesus promised that he would send the Comforter (the Holy Spirit) who would abide with us FOR EVER, and would BE IN YOU.

This is why I believe it is impossible to lose salvation.

I agree there are many scriptures that on first glance appear to say a person can lose salvation, but I think they are speaking of falling away in unbelief before a person ever believes and is sealed forever by the Holy Spirit.

But the reason we could originally fall is because all we had was man's spirit, our natural spirit which is corruptible and could fall into unbelief.

I hope I have explained this well.

Thank you for your clear explanation. I now understand your position better and also why you hold it.

 

[Thomas Helwys]

We have sinful natures even after we are born again.

Adam and Lucifer never had a sinful nature prior to the moment that they chose to sin.

Free will is one of the foundation principles upon which God builds His universe.

At every point of the story - God could have saved Himself a lot of death, torment, suffering , loss by simply revoking free will - and at each decision point - He chose to affirm free will - at all costs - even at the cost of His own Son.

in Christ,

Bob

Very good and true.

 

[Winman]

Thank you for your clear explanation. I now understand your position better and also why you hold it.

Thank you. As you see, I do not believe in "persevering to the end", that is nothing but works.

No, I believe the moment we believe we are transformed into a new creature that is incorruptible, therefore we cannot fall away in unbelief.

A powerful scripture that convinced me of this was 1 John 3:2;

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John said that we are NOW the sons of God. John also said that those who believe can KNOW they are saved (1 John 5:13).

If a person could lose salvation, then no man could KNOW he was saved, and no man could claim to be a son of God NOW, as you would have to wait and see if you persevere to the end.

Remember, Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU. He did not say he ONCE knew us but we fell away. No, you are either saved or you are not, Jesus either knows you NOW, or he never knew you at all.

 

[BobRyan]

Thank you. As you see, I do not believe in "persevering to the end", .

No matter what the Bible says to the contrary?

I think a number of your Calvinist friends as well as Arminians will object to that idea.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Thomas Helwys]

Thank you. As you see, I do not believe in "persevering to the end", that is nothing but works.

No, I believe the moment we believe we are transformed into a new creature that is incorruptible, therefore we cannot fall away in unbelief.

A powerful scripture that convinced me of this was 1 John 3:2;

1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

John said that we are NOW the sons of God. John also said that those who believe can KNOW they are saved (1 John 5:13).

If a person could lose salvation, then no man could KNOW he was saved, and no man could claim to be a son of God NOW, as you would have to wait and see if you persevere to the end.

Remember, Jesus said I NEVER KNEW YOU. He did not say he ONCE knew us but we fell away. No, you are either saved or you are not, Jesus either knows you NOW, or he never knew you at all.

Thanks for the further thoughts.

I still disagree, though.

 

[Winman]

No matter what the Bible says to the contrary?

I think a number of your Calvinist friends as well as Arminians will object to that idea.

in Christ,

Bob

What are you talking about?, the Bible does not even contain the word persevere.

 

[BobRyan]

What are you talking about?


[FONT=&quot]Rom 2[/FONT]
5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,
6 who WILL RENDER TO EACH PERSON ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;

[FONT=&quot]Romans 15:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
For whatever was written in earlier times was written for our instruction, [/FONT]so that through perseverance and the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope.

[FONT=&quot]1 Timothy 4:16[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Pay [/FONT]close attention to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in these things, for as you do this you will ensure salvation both for yourself and for those who hear you.


[FONT=&quot]James 1:12[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
Blessed is a man who [/FONT]perseveres under trial; for once he has been approved, he will receive the crown of life which the Lord has promised to those who love Him.

[FONT=&quot]2Peter 1[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] 5Now for this very reason also, applying all diligence, in your faith supply moral excellence, and in your moral excellence, knowledge, [/FONT]
6and in your knowledge, self-control, and in your self-control, perseverance, and in your perseverance, godliness,
7and in your godliness, brotherly kindness, and in your brotherly kindness, love.
8For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they render you neither useless nor unfruitful in the true knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9For he who lacks these qualities is blind or short-sighted, having forgotten his purification from his former sins.
10Therefore, brethren, be all the more diligent to make certain about His calling and choosing you; for as long as you practice these things, you will never stumble;
11for in this way the entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ will be abundantly supplied to you.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 10:22[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
" You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is [/FONT]the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

[FONT=&quot]Matthew 24:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
" But the one who [/FONT]endures to the end, he will be saved.

[FONT=&quot]Mark 13:13[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
" You will be hated by all because of My name, but [/FONT]the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.

 

[Winman]

My Bible doesn't say persevere;

Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

Rom 15:4 For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

1 Tim 4:16 Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

Jam 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

2 Pet 5:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Mat 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Mat 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mar 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

As you can see, my Bible does not say persevere in any of these verses you showed.

And none of these verses teaches a person must persevere in good works to be saved, they are teaching that a man should endure or keep the faith and not allow himself to be discouraged.

The last three verses are speaking of those believers going through the tribulation, that they should not deny Jesus when they are threatened with death.

 

[BobRyan]

I see - so you believe in "patient continuance" , and "Endurance" - but totally reject "perseverance"???

 

[BobRyan]

As you can see, my Bible does not say persevere in any of these verses you showed.

And none of these verses teaches a person must persevere in good works to be saved, they are teaching that a man should endure or keep the faith and not allow himself to be discouraged.

The last three verses are speaking of those believers going through the tribulation, that they should not deny Jesus when they are threatened with death.

The KJV says

Romans 2

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.


You say "man should endure or keep the faith and not allow himself to be discouraged. " as the liberal translation of "7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"

I find that interesting.

In any case to persevere in holding to true faith - and the walk of Romans 8, and Romans 6 demanded of the saints - is to persevere in "well doing", no matter how you slice it.

Which brings up the problem of failing to persevere 10 years from today and then retro-deleting today's assurance.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

I see - so you believe in "patient continuance" , and "Endurance" - but totally reject "perseverance"???

They are not necessarily the same. Perseverance implies work or performance, where to endure simply means to tolerate, or be patient, or to suffer.

If someone calls you a name because you are a Christian, you endure it. You do not react and call them names, or seek revenge, you actually do nothing.

Now patient continuance could imply performance, you might do good to those who spitefully use you, you continue to be good to them and pray for them.

But I think most of these verses are simply about "keeping the faith" for want of a better term, not allowing ourselves to become discouraged.

A good example would be Abraham, he was 75 years old when God made a promise that he would have a son with Sarah. He had a few lapses in his faith, as when he took Sarah's handmaid and had a child with her, but he continued to believe God's promise even though it took 25 years before God fulfilled his promise.

So, it was not talking about Abraham doing works, but continuing to believe God's promise and not allowing discouragement to overcome him.

 

[BobRyan]

In your view is "severed from Christ - fallen from grace" Gal 5:4 a form of "patient continuance in doing well"???

 

[Winman]

In your view is "severed from Christ - fallen from grace" Gal 5:4 a form of "patient continuance in doing well"???

I don't believe that falling from grace means a person can be once saved and then lost. I believe falling from grace speaks of a person being enlightened to a point where they could choose to believe, but chooses to fall away in unbelief as in Hebrews chapter 6.

The reason I do not believe we can lose salvation is because we are born again of "incorruptible seed", and that our seed "remains" in us and we cannot sin. Now, I do not mean that a Christian cannot sin at all, but that they cannot continue in sin and fall away in unbelief forever.

The scriptures say he that is joined unto the Lord is "one spirit". We are baptized into the body of Christ, we are "one" with him, we are partakers of the divine nature, and therefore cannot fall away in unbelief.

Those persons in Hebrews 6 were enlightened, and "tasted" (but did not fully eat) of God's grace and then fell away. They cannot be renewed to this point of repentance again.

 

[BobRyan]

So in your view Gal 5:4 is Paul speaking to lost people and concerned that they may have become "LostER" - and this is what he means by "you were running well - who hindered you".

He was in fact happy with their prior lost state - but now sadly - they are drifting to a state of lostER.

I find that to be somewhat of an extreme way to get the text to not disrupt an OSAS tradition.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

So in your view Gal 5:4 is Paul speaking to lost people and concerned that they may have become "LostER" - and this is what he means by "you were running well - who hindered you".

He was in fact happy with their prior lost state - but now sadly - they are drifting to a state of lostER.

I find that to be somewhat of an extreme way to get the text to not disrupt an OSAS tradition.

in Christ,

Bob

OK, let's look at that verse.

Gal 5:7 Ye did run well; who did hinder you that ye should not obey the truth?

Does this verse say they stopped obeying the truth? No, it asks who hindered them that they "should not" obey the truth. These persons never obeyed the truth. It doesn't say they once believed the truth but now do not.