Fear and OSAS

[The Biblicist]

Calvinism provides the only logical construct for OSAS (as Calvinists love to point out) for it does not allow free will the option to change your mind once you are saved.
in Christ,

This is nothing but pure poppycock!

First, the lost person is not free from sin but is in the "bondage" of sin. Only in Christ are we made "free" from sin.

Second, God does not coerce anyone to do anything contrary to their will. The object of salvation is the will as it is the will that is at enmity to God and "will" not be subject to the Law of God.

God saves the will from the reign of sin by giving his elect a new heart that is willing to submit to God and is in love with God - Ezek. 36:26-27.

The only coercion of the will comes from within man's own heart. God simply provides a "new" heart a "willing" heart and no one with a "willing" heart complains about being given a new heart or being saved from the bondage of sin.

 

[BobRyan]

If what the opponents of OSAS say is correct, then there should never be any promise in present tense of "ETERNAL" life but only "SPIRITUAL" life. .

That makes no sense at all. The wicked are "alive" but do not have "eternal life". The saved have "eternal life" for that which they have is eternal if they "persevere firm unto the end" according to the Word of God.

By contrast if Calvinism were true there must be no such thing as "Severed from Christ - fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4.

If Calvinism were true then there must be no such thing as "Buffet my body and make it my slave LEST after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified" 1Cor 9.

If Calvinism were true there can be no such thing as Forgiveness REVOKED as we see in Matt 18.

If Calvinism were true then there can be no such thing as a serious warning of the form "FEAR - you stand only by your faith - if God did not spare them neither will He spare you" Romans 11.

 

[evangelist-7]

These types dream up some new straw man caricature daily and then others band-wagoners jump in on their incompetent false conclusions and agree with it. It just reinforces that each who do so are in complete ignorance of this Biblical doctrine.

Then of course we have Bob who believes new revelations are happening. Maybe he looked into a hat and came up with this, or maybe EGW visited him and planted this obtuse idea into his mind.

Then of course we have me who knows nothing of "the doctrines of men"
but who was called to be an evangelist,
and just believes many dozens of warnings/threats in Scripture against OSAS!
.

 

[The Biblicist]

That makes no sense at all. The wicked are "alive" but do not have "eternal life".

Bob, look at what you are saying! The wicked have no "spiritual" life until they are quickened, born again of the Spirit.

You deny that the Spiritual life obtained at quickening is "eternal" but only "potentially" eternal, because you believe it can be lost the very next moment, hour, day, week, etc. Therefore, if your view were correct the word "eternal" should NEVER be used to characterize "Spiritual" life by quickening but only "Spiritual" should be used to characterze that life as lost people are "spiritually" dead!

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
The problem with Calvinism is to the degree that it tries to "be god". Calvinism wonders how it is that God can possibly know the future - and then gives a human down-sized answer that God must be the great puppet master and causes all to obey or to rebel so that he can know the future with absolute certainty - using the tactics a lowly human would have to resort to so that a mere many also would be able to know the future - i.e. making himself the great puppet master.

But God does not stoop to puppet-master tactics so He "can" know the future. And this is the confusing part to the Calvinist.

Rather in Rom 2:11 "God is NOT partial" arbitrarily selecting some for eternal life and others for hell - just when Calvinism wants to have it otherwise.

But the truth is that 1,3 and 5 point Calvinism is the worst news possible for assurance of salvation - because "The Arminian can KNOW for certainty that he/she is saved today - but cannot know that 10 years from today he/she will choose to Persevere -- by contrast the Calvinist cannot even know that" because the Calvinist (1,3,5 pointers) will "retro-delete" today assurance when they discover that 10 years from today they "failed to persevere".

Calvinism and OSAS are two different things. Calvinism - perseverance of the saints. OSAS - preservation of the saints.

Calvinism provides the only logical construct for OSAS (as Calvinists love to point out) for it does not allow free will the option to change your mind once you are saved.

Thus the same puppet-master principle that brings you into salvation - also stops you from choosing any other path once born again.

And because the FEW are saved (Matt 7) and because there is no difference at all between the saved and lost when they are both lost - nothing in the person determines the selection according to Calvinism - it is the defining example of 'arbitrary' selection.

This is nothing but pure poppycock!

First, the lost person is not free from sin but is in the "bondage" of sin. Only in Christ are we made "free" from sin.

There is no "lost person is free from sin" in my statement above.

Your response is a non sequitur.

Second, God does not coerce anyone to do anything contrary to their will. The object of salvation is the will as it is the will that is at enmity to God and "will" not be subject to the Law of God.

In Calvinism the lost are first turned into saved Christians and then asked to choose to be Christians.

Not at all the teaching of scripture according to Romans 10.

” 8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

Thus ends Calvinism and OSAS.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

By contrast if Calvinism were true there must be no such thing as "Severed from Christ - fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4.

I replied to you on this by giving an contextual based response that they departed only from the "doctrine" of grace in their understanding. You, nor any opponent of OSAS ever replied to that post. However, now you jerk it out of context and throw it out as though you have done your homework, which you have not.

Again all these texts jerked out of their context have been responded to many times over. You couldn't prove it then and can't prove they teach that now.

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

By contrast if Calvinism were true there must be no such thing as "Severed from Christ - fallen from Grace" Gal 5:4.

I replied to you on this by giving an contextual based response that they departed only from the "doctrine" of grace in their understanding.

Your much imagined doctrine that the "Saved state" is "Severed from Christ and fallen from Grace" has no Bible support but your own hopeful desire to rescue the OSAS of Calvinism.

There is no Bible support for that at all.

Rather - the Bible says there is NO salvation apart from Christ - just when Calvinism's OSAS would wish us to "imagine" that the saved state is "SEVERED from Christ - FALLEN from Grace".

Notice that in Gal 5 - Paul does not offer this as a state of salvation.

The only thing you get from the context is that the way they lost salvation was to embrace false doctrine. You uphold that point as if it rescues Calvinism's OSAS -- it does not.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

There is no "lost person is free from sin" in my statement above.

Never said there was! I was responding to your anti-Biblical statement wwith Biblical facts. The human will is in bondage to sin in the lost state of man - that is a Biblical fact. Freedom of the will from the bondage of sin is only found "in Christ" as there is no kind of salvation OUTSIDE of Christ.

In Calvinism the lost are first turned into saved Christians and then asked to choose to be Christians.

I could care less about the many kinds of Calvinism. You are building straw men only to burn them. Have I ever quoted Calvin or a Calvinist? NEVER! I quote scripture and my doctrine comes from scripture alone. I quote scripture and you respond by quoting Calvin or Calvinists.

Scripture teaches that "with the heart man believeth" and it is with the "NEW" heart given by God becuase the "old" heart is at enmity with God before and AFTER regeeration.

Regeneration/gospel conversion are SIMLETANEOUS in scripture regardless of what Calvin, Calvinists or you say to the contrary.

 

[The Biblicist]

[/I]




Your much imagined doctrine that the "Saved state" is "Severed from Christ and fallen from Grace" has no Bible support but your own hopeful desire to rescue the OSAS of Calvinism.

I have no idea what you are talking about as I believe no such things. I am saying the very opposite of what you are accusing me of saying and believing.

They fell from the doctrine/teaching of grace through being led astray by false teachers.

I will find my post and allow you a second chance to respond to the evidence.

 

[preacher4truth]

I was referring to Bob Ryan's post terminology. Actually, I agree that perservance of the saints, preservation of the saints, forfeiting your salvation, and losing your salvation beliefs are basically the same except for definitions, terminology, and a play on words concerning the security of the saints. The Stanley/hodges ES version is different in that one does not have to be trusting in Christ when they die and still go to heaven.

I'd disagree with Stanley on this as I believe he teaches one can die even an unbeliever yet still gain heaven due to a one time profession of faith. I believe Scripture begs to differ with that.

 

[preacher4truth]

Then of course we have me who knows nothing of "the doctrines of men"
but who was called to be an evangelist,
and just believes many dozens of warnings/threats in Scripture against OSAS!
.

You don't believe the doctrines of men? You believe your own teachings which are against the clear teachings of Scripture and the words of Christ.

You're simply attempting to say that those who prove they were never saved were once saved and then lost salvation. That equals the teachings of men, or quite plainly your teaching.

Jesus will lose none. John 6:39.

Thus your claim to Bible only is short-sighted and misleading as you've given your erroneous interpretations that divorce themselves from the words of Christ and you do in fact adhere to the teachings of man, that man being you.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'd disagree with Stanley on this as I believe he teaches one can die even an unbeliever yet still gain heaven due to a one time profession of faith. I believe Scripture begs to differ with that.

Initial faith obtains eternal justification IF it is accompanied by new birth as there is no such thing as an unregenerated beleiver in Christ any more than there is such a thing as a regenerated unbeleiver in Christ.

It is a common occurence that many faithful born again Christians after reaching old age lose the mental balance (alzheimer's, etc.) and often deny the faith and resort back to a life characterized by their fallen nature. Why? Because the Christian life is a battle that is fought by intentionally yeilding to the Holy Spirit. When that ability to intentionally yield is lost due to disease then the old nature resumes complete control but that person has not lost their salvation because our salvation is not based upon our ability to yield to the Spirit or "good" works but the works and Person of Jesus Christ in our stead.

Likewise, true believers may be MENTALLY led astray into denying the Grace of God due to false doctrine without falling from the STATE or POSITION of grace. See my thread on Galatians 5:4 for a much more detailed defense of this position.

The bottom line is that we may lose our own assurance of salvation due to many things but the foundation of God stands sure as God knows His own even when they do not know.

 

[steaver]

If Calvinism were true then there can be no such thing as a serious warning of the form "FEAR - you stand only by your faith - if God did not spare them neither will He spare you" Romans 11.

Here we have one of the most clearly stated passage of scripture teaching that it is by faith alone which saves. This "alone" ,as a matter of fact, eliminates every objection given by the anti-osas camp with one exception, that is making a mental decision to stop believing.

So with any kind of sins, or fruits, or works of the law eliminated from having anything to do with justification by this verse, we are left with faith being the ONLY measure by which one is proved justified.

So do we have any bible verses which speaks of those who appear to believe for awhile but later stop following Jesus Christ?

Yes, we do....

John 8; "Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." By the time this dialogue with these who "believed on Him" was finished, some were picking up stones to kill Jesus. They manifested that they were not true believers.

1John 2: "They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would [no doubt] have continued with us: but [they went out], that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us."

Col 1: "If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;"

And we have the "if so be" scriptures.....

Ro 8: "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his."

Ro 8: "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with [him], that we may be also glorified together."

1Cr 5: "If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked."

Eph 4: "If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:"

1Pe 2: "If so be ye have tasted that the Lord [is] gracious."

Matt 7: "Not all who say to me Lord Lord shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but those who do the will of my father in heaven".

And what is the will of the Father, to believe on His Son Jesus Christ...

John 6: "Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent."

So we see how the scriptures teach that a person can appear to be a believer, maybe tag along with the crowd or buddy pack, and then be manifested that they were never true Christians. These are only a few of the many scriptures supporting faith alone and the wheat verses the tares we find all throughout the scriptures.

In the end, only Jesus knows for 100% those who are His, we are not to go around making judgments by how much fruit we see, or how much love we see, or how much obedience we see.

...."you stand ONLY through faith"

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan
If Calvinism were true then there can be no such thing as a serious warning of the form "FEAR - you stand only by your faith - if God did not spare them neither will He spare you" Romans 11.

Here we have one of the most clearly stated passage of scripture teaching that it is by faith alone which saves. This "alone" ,as a matter of fact, eliminates every objection given by the anti-osas camp

As we all know - the word "Alone" is not found in Romans 11.

But since you agree that it is a good chapter to read - here is what we do find.


Romans 11

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness andseverity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


I think you will agree that the Arminian language here is undeniable.

Can we now imagine that those who "are standing only by their faith" -- are in fact "NOT standing by their faith" but are lost? IT would make no sense here.

Can we imagine that God wants to "graft them in again" if being grafted in - is just another lost state?

Is God warning the lost not to become "lost-er" in Romans 11. It does seem difficult to wrench the text over that far just to get OSAS to survive the text.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[steaver]

As we all know - the word "Alone" is not found in Romans 11.


in Christ,

Bob

on·ly

/ˈōnlē/

Adverb
And no one or nothing more besides; solely or exclusively: "there are only a limited number of tickets available".
Adjective
Alone of its or their kind; single or solitary: "he was an only child".
Conjunction
Except that; but for the fact that: "he is still a young man, only he seems older".
Synonyms
adverb. merely - just - but - solely - alone - simplyadjective. sole - single - one - unique - alone - exclusive - lone

You can pretend all day long that "only" does not mean "alone", but I believe this just exposes a major flaw in your willingness to acknowledge the truth...."you stand ONLY through FAITH"

My exposition stands unchallenged, I never said Romans 11 proves OSAS, what it does prove is faith alone is what justifies the sinner. See the unbiased definition of "only" given above. This pretty much expels just about 99% of what you post as evidence against OSAS. You will have to stick to ONLY those scriptures which deal with FAITH in order to take a respected stand against OSAS. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[BobRyan]

I agree with you that Romans 11 does not prove OSAS - in fact it disproves it.


Romans 11

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness andseverity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.


I think you will agree that the Arminian language here is undeniable.

Can we now imagine that those who "are standing only by their faith" -- are in fact "NOT standing by their faith" but are lost? IT would make no sense here.

Can we imagine that God wants to "graft them in again" if being grafted in - is just another lost state?

Is God warning the lost not to become "lost-er" in Romans 11. It does seem difficult to wrench the text over that far just to get OSAS to survive the text.

==============================

I also agree that Eph 2 speaks of "Saved by Grace through Faith not of works lest anyone should boast".

I just don't know where "by faith alone" is found in Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[The Biblicist]

As we all know - the word "Alone" is not found in Romans 11.

But since you agree that it is a good chapter to read - here is what we do find.


Romans 11

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness andseverity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Ask yourself a couple of questions. For example, who is it that was "cut off"??? Was it the NATION of Israel? Was it previously saved Jews or the "remnant"?

The answer is obvious to anyone who reads the full context. It is the unregenerated NATION of Israel that was cut off not saved people. So cutting off has nothing to do with losing or gaining personal salvation in this context. The Nation of Israel was cut off as a whole while the remnant were never cut off. Moreover, those he is threatening to be cut off are not individuals either but GENTILES nations as a whole, just as the Jewish nation was cut off as a whole.

Furthermore, what was previously cut off is said to be grafted back in "again." They were lost when they were unregenerated Nation as a whole and grafting them back does not regenerate them but rather it means that God has come back to the Jewish nation in regard to his greater redemptive work.


I think you will agree that the Arminian language here is undeniable.

Can we now imagine that those who "are standing only by their faith" -- are in fact "NOT standing by their faith" but are lost? IT would make no sense here.

Can we imagine that God wants to "graft them in again" if being grafted in - is just another lost state?

Is God warning the lost not to become "lost-er" in Romans 11. It does seem difficult to wrench the text over that far just to get OSAS to survive the text.

in Christ,

Bob[/QUOTE]

 

[steaver]

I also agree that Eph 2 speaks of "Saved by Grace through Faith not of works lest anyone should boast".

I just don't know where "by faith alone" is found in Romans 11.

in Christ,

Bob

Continuing to pretend it is not there does not add credibility to your position. You yourself quote it many times....

Rom 11:20; "That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast ONLY through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe."

 

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted by BobRyan

As we all know - the word "Alone" is not found in Romans 11.

But since you agree that it is a good chapter to read - here is what we do find.


Romans 11

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness andseverity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Ask yourself a couple of questions. For example, who is it that was "cut off"??? Was it the NATION of Israel? Was it previously saved Jews or the "remnant"?

1. It is not a "nation" lost or saved. The "you" is each individual saint in the church in Rome and by extension in all the Christian church in all ages. It is not a claim that "all nations of Gentiles are standing by their faith" and are saved and should be warned from falling. - obviously.

Paul points out that some individuals have accepted and some have rejected the good news about Christ.


7 What then? Israel has not obtained what it seeks; but the elect have obtained it, and the rest were blinded. 8

Those who reject it - lost there salvation. This is not all the Jews - it is only some of them - those who rejected the news of the Gospel when they learned about Jesus being the Christ. For "He is able to graft them in AGAIN if they do not continue in unbelief". This does not refer to Jews like Paul - but Jews like those who rejected the news about Jesus as the Christ and were then lost.

But what is even more important is that the "you who stand only by your faith" are in the SAME danger as those Jews who reject the Gospel when they learn about it.

Saving truth is "the next truth" - the next "inconvenient truth".

20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

those he is threatening to be cut off are not individuals either but GENTILES nations as a whole

The Gentile nations were all pagan. None of the gentile nations were "standing by faith alone" or "Standing only by their faith". By far the majority of gentiles in ALL nations at the writing of Romans 11 - were pagans. Not Christians standing by faith.

I think you will have to agree that this point is obvious to all of us.

So as you point out - OSAS needs us to ignore this detail - but it is plainly there for all of us to see.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Rom 11:20; "That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast ONLY through faith. So do not become proud, but stand in awe."

fine then

Romans 11

18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in.
20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22 Behold therefore the goodness andseverity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

Those who "stand only by their faith" are the very ones who should "fear" for
21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee

It is impossible to argue that all the idol-worshipping pagan nations were in fact "standing by faith alone" and should fear lest they ever change from that high and exalted lost status bound for the lake of fire.

So obviously it is in fact only the saved Saints ( in the church at Rome in this case - and in all the entire Christian church in all ages by extension) that were to "fear" - only the saved need to maintain that status -- the lost need to abandon their status as fast as possible. I think you will agree with me - this is the easy part.

The only part that is difficult about it -- is in accepting the obvious points in the text while also trying get OSAS to survive it.

in Christ,

Bob