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Fear or Peace?

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1689Dave

1689Dave

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37818 said:
Where did you get a pre trib rapture out of those two texts? Those two texts only teach a post resurrection rapture adding context of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.
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I thought you like most were suggesting it. If you believe the rapture happens after the resurrection on the last day, we agree.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
John of Japan said:
They could not have been premillennialists, since the 1000 year reign of Christ had not been clearly prophesied in Rev. 20 yet. And you completely missed the Scripture I quoted, giving none of your own--once again. I'm not sure you've given any Scripture whatever on this thread. Have you?

But yes, the Jews failed to understand the Kingdom of God, and then interpreted Davidic kingdom prophecies literally, such as when Christ made His triumphal entry into Jerusalem. The Bible says (why don't you ever quote the Bible?), "And the multitudes that went before, and that followed, cried, saying, Hosanna to the Son of David: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord; Hosanna in the highest" (Matthew 21:9). But guess what. Jesus set the whole thing up! He accepted the adulation of the crowd, who believed He was the seed of David, the literal "son of David." And Jesus did not rebuke them, but accepted their praise.

Then, at His Ascension, the disciples asked Him whether it was time for the Davidic kingdom. Did He rebuke them for their literal interpretation? No, He reassured them that God had the right time for the Davidic kingdom figured out. Here it is in Acts 1: "6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? 7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power. 8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth."
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The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine.


First, MILLENNIUM: MILLENNIUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram

Table of Contents

Messianic Period an Interregnum.

The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism.
 
John of Japan

John of Japan

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1689Dave said:
The Millennium is a Pharisee Doctrine.


First, MILLENNIUM: MILLENNIUM - JewishEncyclopedia.com
By: Joseph Jacobs, A. Biram

Table of Contents

Messianic Period an Interregnum.

The reign of peace, lasting one thousand years, which will precede the Last Judgment and the future life. The concept has assumed especial importance in the Christian Church, where it is termed also “chiliasm,” designating the dominion of Jesus with the glorified and risen saints over the world for a thousand years. Chiliasm or the idea of the millennium is, nevertheless, older than the Christian Church; for the belief in a period of one thousand years at the end of time as a preliminary to the resurrection of the dead was held in Parseeism.
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Sorry, nice try, but the article you linked to mentions nothing about the Pharisees. The "Parseeism" mentioned here is not the same as Phariseeism, but is a Zoroastrian sect. Zoroastrianism is from Persia, not Israel, founded by a Persian named Zoroaster.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
1689Dave said:
I thought you like most were suggesting it.
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Personally my view is pre mill, pre wrath, post trib, post resurrection, rapture.

The per trib view is based on the notion the tribulation to be of the wrath of God and the explicit promise, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." Along with the view of the immanent return of Christ.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
John of Japan said:
Sorry, nice try, but the article you linked to mentions nothing about the Pharisees. The "Parseeism" mentioned here is not the same as Phariseeism, but is a Zoroastrian sect. Zoroastrianism is from Persia, not Israel, founded by a Persian named Zoroaster.
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The Pharisees were the only survivors of 70 AD. The Sadducees did not survive. Besides, the Sadducees disagreed with them. According to the Jewish Encylopedia, they represent the religion of "Israel" today.

Today's State of Israel and Who They Claim to Be.

Following are a couple of brief quotes from the Jewish Encyclopedia, The Talmud (Jewish oral traditions in written form), and one from a leading Rabbi today. They claim Pharisaism as the continuing Jewish religion.

According to the 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia, the Pharisees are today’s Jews.
“With the destruction of the Temple (70 A.D.) the Sadducees disappeared altogether, leaving the regulation of all Jewish affairs in the hands of the Pharisees. Henceforth, Jewish life was regulated by the Pharisees; the whole history of Judaism was reconstructed from the Pharisaic point of view, and a new aspect was given to the Sanhedrin of the past. A new chain of tradition supplanted the older priestly tradition (Abot 1:1). Pharisaism shaped the character of Judaism and the life and thought of the Jew for all the future.” The 1906 Jewish Encyclopedia Edited by Isadore Singer

From the Universal Jewish Encyclopedia (1943):
“The Jewish religion as it is today traces its descent, without a break, through all the centuries, from the Pharisees. Their leading ideas and methods found expression in a literature of enormous extent, of which a very great deal is still in existence. The Talmud is the largest and most important single piece of that literature … and the study of it is essential for any real understanding of Pharisaism.”
From the Talmud

Thus began the Talmud, mainly oral at first. Teacher succeeded teacher in synagogue and school. Their sayings and rulings based on the Book were treasured. The Sadducees, representing the extreme latitudinarians in life, opposed the continuous interpretation and reinterpretation of the Law to meet changing circumstances. They failed and disappeared. The Pharisees who provided the chief teachers of the Law succeeded and remained, and the Talmud is not the least of their achievements. BABA METZIAH – 91a-119a 93 INTRODUCTORY ESSAY (Soncino Babylonian Talmud) by THE EDITOR RABBI DR I . EPSTEIN B.A., Ph.D., D. Lit.
Rabbi Adin Steinsaltz (popular today and editor of his own version of the Talmud); commentary on BT Sanhedrin 59a

Access to the Talmud is not a crime for those who refrain from criticizing the religion of Judaism (“vexing Jews”). Jesus Christ quoted the forerunner of the Talmud, the Mishnah as it was repeated in its oral form. As a critic of those Pharisaic doctrines he had no right to study them, according to the rabbis, and He paid for His study and critical evaluation with His life. The same fate awaits all skeptical researchers and scholars who dare to peer into the pages of the Talmud. From Michael Hoffman. Judaism Discovered.

If you study the Talmud, especially the uncensored Soncino Babylonian version, it doesn't take long to see who they are.
 
1689Dave

1689Dave

Well-Known Member
37818 said:
Personally my view is pre mill, pre wrath, post trib, post resurrection, rapture.

The per trib view is based on the notion the tribulation to be of the wrath of God and the explicit promise, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." Along with the view of the immanent return of Christ.
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It simply happens after the resurrection on the last day.
 
Y

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
37818 said:
Personally my view is pre mill, pre wrath, post trib, post resurrection, rapture.

The per trib view is based on the notion the tribulation to be of the wrath of God and the explicit promise, 1 Thessalonians 1:10, "And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come." Along with the view of the immanent return of Christ.
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We are not appointed to face the wrath of God as towards judgement for sins, but will suffer wrath of man!
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
In the ultimate sense, but in the sense of jesus as King, will be established at second coming!
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The everlasting throne of David is not till the new Heaven and Earth. Revelation 20:11, ". . . the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."
 
Y

Yeshua1

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37818 said:
The everlasting throne of David is not till the new Heaven and Earth. Revelation 20:11, ". . . the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them."
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The throne of David will be set up at Second Coming!
 
Y

Yeshua1

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37818 said:
So do you believe that ends at His second appearing? I do not. But His role per Psalms 110. Ends with death being destroyed. 1 Corinthians 15:26-28.
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Do you see Jesus directly reigning over the earth right now?
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
Yeshua1 said:
Do you see Jesus directly reigning over the earth right now?
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Not as yet as a human king on earth. That begins in the millennium. On the throne of David in the New Earth which will have no end. John 1:3 has never changed.
 
37818

37818

Well-Known Member
@Yeshua1
Reviewing references Christ's eternal rule on His father David's throne could in deed be understood to begin at His second appearing. Revelation 11:15, ". . . The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever." Christ as Judge would not change that. Psalms 104:5, "Who laid the foundations of the earth, that it should not be removed for ever."
 
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