Feedback?

[Van]

One of the puzzling aspects of theological discussion is the perseverance of apparently false doctrines. Why are they not identified and corrected? In the material world, if you see a problem, say a bridge recently built collapses, the feedback from experience teaches those, to those proposing bridge design, that something was off with their old design.

But in the world of theology, only those who have passed away are in a position to provide feedback, yes you were right on this point, but wrong on this other thing.

The feedback we seem to get from those also advocating this or that aspect of theology, that what we are proposing is off the mark, is based on their untested opinion, rather than from the school of experience.

Years ago, when I was working in a middle management position is a bureaucracy, my boss had two doctorates, one in statistical analysis, and the other in nuclear phys9ics. My degree was a high school diploma. When something unexpected occurred, we both evaluated the event, and offered possible solutions. Many times we agreed. But when I held a different view from my boss, guess which view prevailed? But when the same over very similar event recurred after the alternate proposed "fix" was implemented, then guess whose view prevailed?

But with our discussions, we get no feedback, to teach us where we are missing the mark. We should be able to rely, at least to a degree, upon other bible students, but the majority of the time, the alternate view comes from indoctrination, not independent study. Thus our feedback loop provides little or no corrective action, and our mistaken beliefs continue unabated.

 

[Ben1445]

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

 

[Van]

Luke 16:31
And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Once again we have a posted verse, but no reason given for the post.

I will assume, receiving no feedback, that the idea is people cannot understand God's word, and therefore cannot provide feedback.

If this is the unstated contention of the post, it is absolutely false.

Some people cannot understand, like Soil #1 of Matthew 13. They are incapable of providing feedback. But the rest of us, like soils 2, 3 and 4 can hear and understand the gospel, as it is spiritual milk. And those of us who have been born anew and indwelt, probably could provide valuable feedback.

 

[Ben1445]

Once again we have a posted verse, but no reason given for the post.

I will assume, receiving no feedback, that the idea is people cannot understand God's word, and therefore cannot provide feedback.

If this is the unstated contention of the post, it is absolutely false.

Some people cannot understand, like Soil #1 of Matthew 13. They are incapable of providing feedback. But the rest of us, like soils 2, 3 and 4 can hear and understand the gospel, as it is spiritual milk. And those of us who have been born anew and indwelt, probably could provide valuable feedback.

But in the world of theology, only those who have passed away are in a position to provide feedback,

Feed back is not usually what people really want. When they get feedback, they usually correct it.
So here it is spelled out as clearly as I possibly can.
If the rich man’s family won’t be corrected by miraculous feedback, there is likely no feedback that will help the people who already don’t believe the Bible. And by don’t believe the Bible, I mean that they persist in their unbiblical beliefs.

 

[Ben1445]

I will assume, receiving no feedback, that the idea is people cannot understand God's word, and therefore cannot provide feedback.

Don’t flatter yourself too much. Even if I did post the verse because I cannot understand it and needed to have you explain it, which I didn’t, you failed to explain the verse. So, you apparently are ground #1 just like me.
But I don’t assume this. I’m just applying your ridiculous logic to yourself.

 

[Van]

Don’t flatter yourself too much. Even if I did post the verse because I cannot understand it and needed to have you explain it, which I didn’t, you failed to explain the verse. So, you apparently are ground #1 just like me.
But I don’t assume this. I’m just applying your ridiculous logic to yourself.

Hi Ben1445

1) Just because you believe folks are unable to be led to Christ by God's word, I am not "flattering myself" to believe what God's word says.

2) Apparently you believe all the lost are soil #1, and believe soils 2, 3 could not understand and accept the gospel. Sounds like "ridiculous logic" to me.

3) "Taint so and your rotten for saying so" does not qualify as useful feedback.

4) For example, I point to Luke 13:24, and conclude many of the lost can understand spiritual milk because they will seek the narrow door. Or the rich young ruler seeking eternal life. Or the Jews seeking God through works rather than faith. Or how about John 3:16, everyone believing into Him will not perish. Thus at least some of the lost can believe. The case against your claim is overwhelming in my view.

 

[Ben1445]

Hi Ben1445

1) Just because you believe folks are unable to be led to Christ by God's word, I am not "flattering myself" to believe what God's word says.

When have I ever said that?
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Hearing comes by preaching, preaching by preachers. Did not Jesus send the gospel to every creature by way of preaching?
Why can they not believe in whom they have heard?

2) Apparently you believe all the lost are soil #1, and believe soils 2, 3 could not understand and accept the gospel. Sounds like "ridiculous logic" to me.

It was your analogy. I disagree with your application. See the end of the post.

3) "Taint so and your rotten for saying so" does not qualify as useful feedback.

If by giving you the feedback that you asked for and you attempted to shame out of me, I am saying “taint so” and disagreeing with you, so what? You asked for the feedback.
But as I said, people don’t usually want feedback. They just want to be told that they are right.

4) For example, I point to Luke 13:24, and conclude many of the lost can understand spiritual milk because they will seek the narrow door. Or the rich young ruler seeking eternal life. Or the Jews seeking God through works rather than faith. Or how about John 3:16, everyone believing into Him will not perish. Thus at least some of the lost can believe. The case against your claim is overwhelming in my view.

You have me confused with someone else. I would go further than you do and say that if the ground would receive it like good ground, all can receive it.
Romans 10:12
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

The gospel is plain enough for all men to understand. Whether or not they receive it depends upon their humility, recognition of their own needs, and their belief.
This is not a checklist for obtaining salvation.
There is no amount of faith that could be credited with salvation without the Saviour providing the salvation to have faith in.
So for all of the people you have mistaken me for, it is not about how we raise ourselves up to God.


But to answer what you said

I will assume, receiving no feedback, that the idea is people cannot understand God's word, and therefore cannot provide feedback.

Some people cannot understand, like Soil #1 of Matthew 13. They are incapable of providing feedback. But the rest of us, like soils 2, 3 and 4 can hear and understand the gospel, as it is spiritual milk.

What I gather was that you figured I was incapable of providing feedback. You didn’t apply the verse supplied. So I figured you were in the same group as me.

But I disagree with your explanation of the soils.
Any time the word of the kingdom is preached, there is opportunity by all four soils to receive it. The reasons that they don’t or do is because of what happens after hearing. This is how they get their names.
The word of the kingdom is not only the gospel. The word of the kingdom must also include the teachings of the kingdom. How to become a member? Certainly. How to behave as a member? Why not?
Application in regard to salvation only implies that good ground can get saved a hundred times.
Jesus taught of the kingdom of heaven all the time.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How the word is received affects how fruitful it is.
The same is true of salvation but not limited to it.

 

[Van]

SNIP

What I gather was that you figured I was incapable of providing feedback. You didn’t apply the verse supplied. So I figured you were in the same group as me.

But I disagree with your explanation of the soils.
Any time the word of the kingdom is preached, there is opportunity by all four soils to receive it. The reasons that they don’t or do is because of what happens after hearing. This is how they get their names.
The word of the kingdom is not only the gospel. The word of the kingdom must also include the teachings of the kingdom. How to become a member? Certainly. How to behave as a member? Why not?
Application in regard to salvation only implies that good ground can get saved a hundred times.
Jesus taught of the kingdom of heaven all the time.
Matthew 5:19
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

How the word is received affects how fruitful it is.
The same is true of salvation but not limited to it.

1) Soil #1 had no opportunity to receive the gospel as they do not understand it.

2) Your "word of the kingdom" from Matthew 13:19 refers to the gospel, the good news, the instructions for Christ's kingdom.

3) Yes, the instructions include guidance for our behavior as we strive to become Christ-like.

4) Your application restriction is fiction. You made it up. The lost can apply bad examples as something they must avoid.

5) Matthew 5:19 is non-germane. The issue is receiving feedback from others, hopefully born anew believers. We are supposed to work together and come to consensus. which includes positive feedback with our agreement or negative feedback with our objections. To object to working together with the goal of unity of belief is nonsense.

6) Yes, we all, those of soils 2, 3 and 4 receive the gospel and make of it what we will. But their is opportunity for further witness, to not only plant but then to water. Note how Apollos watered, 1 Corinthians 3:6. But before that, Acts 18:24-26 he received feedback and improved his witness.

 

[Van]

No one can come to believe in Christ unless "drawn" (attracted) by the Father. John 6:44.

And to be drawn through the gospel, we must learn from the Father. John 6:45

Therefore unless we understand, at least to a degree, the gospel, we cannot be "drawn," we cannot "learn" from the Father.

So why do some, soils 2 & 3, not fully embrace the gospel? How is some part of the "necessary" understanding veiled? What if we believe some aspect of the gospel is "a" rather than what it actually is, "b." What if we have accepted as "true" something about the gospel that is off the mark?
Then we will reject the truth because it differs from what we already believe is true. Sometimes this filtering of information is called "confirmation bias."

If this is reality, then both sides will "see" the other side as "liars." But with humility, and a suppression of pride, we can tear that man-made veil.

 

[Ben1445]

1) Soil #1 had no opportunity to receive the gospel as they do not understand it.

2) Your "word of the kingdom" from Matthew 13:19 refers to the gospel, the good news, the instructions for Christ's kingdom.

3) Yes, the instructions include guidance for our behavior as we strive to become Christ-like.

4) Your application restriction is fiction. You made it up. The lost can apply bad examples as something they must avoid.

5) Matthew 5:19 is non-germane. The issue is receiving feedback from others, hopefully born anew believers. We are supposed to work together and come to consensus. which includes positive feedback with our agreement or negative feedback with our objections. To object to working together with the goal of unity of belief is nonsense.

6) Yes, we all, those of soils 2, 3 and 4 receive the gospel and make of it what we will. But their is opportunity for further witness, to not only plant but then to water. Note how Apollos watered, 1 Corinthians 3:6. But before that, Acts 18:24-26 he received feedback and improved his witness.

But like I said, the feedback has to be wanted. All you want is for people to agree with you.

 

[Ben1445]

No one can come to believe in Christ unless "drawn" (attracted) by the Father. John 6:44.

Hearing God’s Word is not being drawn?

And to be drawn through the gospel, we must learn from the Father. John 6:45

You do not learn of the gospel from the Word of God, sent from the Father?
That would be the Word going out into the soils.

Therefore unless we understand, at least to a degree, the gospel, we cannot be "drawn," we cannot "learn" from the Father.

Chapter and verse for this please.

Hearing the gospel the first time is not drawing?

So why do some, soils 2 & 3, not fully embrace the gospel? How is some part of the "necessary" understanding veiled?

It is obfuscated by those who complicate it.


Enter obfuscation…

What if we believe some aspect of the gospel is "a" rather than what it actually is, "b." What if we have accepted as "true" something about the gospel that is off the mark?
Then we will reject the truth because it differs from what we already believe is true. Sometimes this filtering of information is called "confirmation bias."

You should be able to recognize it by experience.

If this is reality, then both sides will "see" the other side as "liars." But with humility, and a suppression of pride, we can tear that man-made veil.

Suppress your pride only once and consider the only feedback you are getting.

 

[JesusFan]

One of the puzzling aspects of theological discussion is the perseverance of apparently false doctrines. Why are they not identified and corrected? In the material world, if you see a problem, say a bridge recently built collapses, the feedback from experience teaches those, to those proposing bridge design, that something was off with their old design.

But in the world of theology, only those who have passed away are in a position to provide feedback, yes you were right on this point, but wrong on this other thing.

The feedback we seem to get from those also advocating this or that aspect of theology, that what we are proposing is off the mark, is based on their untested opinion, rather than from the school of experience.

Years ago, when I was working in a middle management position is a bureaucracy, my boss had two doctorates, one in statistical analysis, and the other in nuclear phys9ics. My degree was a high school diploma. When something unexpected occurred, we both evaluated the event, and offered possible solutions. Many times we agreed. But when I held a different view from my boss, guess which view prevailed? But when the same over very similar event recurred after the alternate proposed "fix" was implemented, then guess whose view prevailed?

But with our discussions, we get no feedback, to teach us where we are missing the mark. We should be able to rely, at least to a degree, upon other bible students, but the majority of the time, the alternate view comes from indoctrination, not independent study. Thus our feedback loop provides little or no corrective action, and our mistaken beliefs continue unabated.

Please define to us "false doctrine and theology"

 

[Van]

Hearing God’s Word is not being drawn?


You do not learn of the gospel from the Word of God, sent from the Father?
That would be the Word going out into the soils.


Chapter and verse for this please.

Hearing the gospel the first time is not drawing?


It is obfuscated by those who complicate it.


Enter obfuscation…


You should be able to recognize it by experience.


Suppress your pride only once and consider the only feedback you are getting.

There seems to be no way to get you to discuss scripture, but you do seem willing to discuss your perception of my faults. Conclusion, you may be an empty suit.

 

[Ben1445]

There seems to be no way to get you to discuss scripture, but you do seem willing to discuss your perception of my faults. Conclusion, you may be an empty suit.

I gave you scriptural feedback. You said I was wrong. What do you want to discuss. I took your feedback like a door in a Mormons face (not that I know what that is literally like) when you shut me down I figured you didn’t really want feedback. I still disagree with you. Do you want to tell me you disagree with me again?

 

[Van]

Please define to us "false doctrine and theology"

I believe the T, U, L, and I of the TULIP are false doctrines. And the feedback I receive for explaining my views is "taint so and you are rotten for saying so."

If i say Luke 13:24 proves the "T" is false doctrine, I get "taint so" feedback, then non-stop efforts to disparage me.

 

[Van]

I gave you scriptural feedback. You said I was wrong. What do you want to discuss. I took your feedback like a door in a Mormons face (not that I know what that is literally like) when you shut me down I figured you didn’t really want feedback. I still disagree with you. Do you want to tell me you disagree with me again?

Yet another, "Van is unteachable post," devoid of content. The evidence for you being an empty suit is growing by your every post.

Scripture requires we work together to try and find common ground, a consensus, a unity of beliefs.

Those that say we cannot learn from one another, as Apollos did, are simply posting false doctrine.

 

[Ben1445]

Yet another, "Van is unteachable post," devoid of content. The evidence for you being an empty suit is growing by your every post.

Scripture requires we work together to try and find common ground, a consensus, a unity of beliefs.

Those that say we cannot learn from one another, as Apollos did, are simply posting false doctrine.

What do you want to talk about?
I forgot the question mark. Typos do happen. And more and more as they update autocorrect.

Once more to be sure you see it,
What do you want to discuss?

 

[Van]

What do you want to talk about?
I forgot the question mark. Typos do happen. And more and more as they update autocorrect.

Once more to be sure you see it,
What do you want to discuss?

I posted the OP looking for discussion of how we could improve our feedback to one another, to help all of us grow toward unity of belief.
Your response was that people do not want feedback that helps them improve their witness. They usually just want confirmation their view is correct. That would NOT be the behavior of the born anew believers in the Sunday school classes I helped teach.

 

[Ben1445]

I posted the OP looking for discussion of how we could improve our feedback to one another, to help all of us grow toward unity of belief.
Your response was that people do not want feedback that helps them improve their witness. They usually just want confirmation their view is correct. That would NOT be the behavior of the born anew believers in the Sunday school classes I helped teach.

Context helps plenty. I will try my best not to let you down.

2 Timothy 3:8
-- Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

Unbelief (of truth) and resisting the truth go hand in hand.
What are their problems?
They are reprobate concerning the faith.
Their minds are corrupted.

The beginning of the chapter tells their story.
Verses 2-7
For men shall be lovers of their own selves,
covetous,
boasters,
proud,
blasphemers,
disobedient to parents,
unthankful,
unholy,
Without natural affection,
trucebreakers,
false accusers,
incontinent,
fierce,
despisers of those that are good,
Traitors,
heady,
highminded,
lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof:
from such turn away. For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts, Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.



There are no less than 18 topics listed in these verses. These are problems that if found in the lives of Christians will affect their ability to understand Scripture.

1Cor. 3.1-3
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able. For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?

Each of these areas should be addressed by believers. Not that we all have them all but that they are easy to creep in. ( I should hope not all of them even still, blasphemers, unnatural affection, but it depends on the church now a days I guess)
Anything removed must be replaced with its correction. It is not enough to say don’t be unthankful. You must also teach thankfulness.
There are studies that suggest that thankfulness and anxiety can not exist together.

There are others that suggest otherwise.

Regardless, of who is right, secular science supports the idea of replacing what causes us harm with something that causes us to heal.
They didn’t come up with this on their own. God designed it that way. People are slow in figuring it out.

That is all I have time to add presently.
I hope this is more of what you are looking for.