Feeding 5,000 (more or less)...

[skypair]

For me, I just don't see the logic, or biblical proof to your accertion in the above. And in all fairness (though it isn't a commonly held Dispy view) the problem might lie in your needing to elaborate quite a bit more. So if you would please......

First, I'll take no stand on the feeding of 4000 in Mt being prophetic. That was merely for comparison and future study.

Second, please read my remarks to David and see if that helps.

Third, John was "The Revelator." His "sign" miracles concern prophetic signs, in my view. Taken together, they are really quite an exquisite overview of cross to 2nd coming. If you think you might be interested, I'll post them again (I have in the past to a not-to-enthusiastic response. Mox-nix to me unless I take the time to write a book about all these things.).

skypair

 

[Outsider]

John was "The Revelator."

Skypair,

Why do you call John the "Revelator?"

 

[LeBuick]

Skypair,

Why do you call John the "Revelator?"

He was known for Revelating... :thumbs:

 

[David Lamb]

First, from the 5 foolsih virgins in Mt 25:1-13. I believe that the event posed there is the rapture -- that 5 virgins had no oil/Holy Spirit and were not taken to the wedding in heaven -- that they toiled on earth to "go and buy" (referring directly to Laodicea, Rev 3:18) -- but there is not more rapture/access to the wedding -- they are told to "watch for the Son of man," an OT term for the coming of Messiah at the end of the trib.

But what (apart from the number 5) shows you that the foolish virgins are linked to the 5 loaves? Do you believe that every time the number five is mentioned in the bible, or at least in the New Testament, it is a "sign of the church that was left behind"? Could it not just be, as the disciples told Jesus, that there there was a lad there with five loaves and two fish?

Five are the churches left behind in Rev 2-3 which is quite easily shown by Smyrna and Philadelphia being the only churches with the possibility of receiving CROWNS. As we all atest, crowns are received only be the church only at the Bema post-rapture 1Thes 2:19. The crown that Phillies might lose is the "crown of righteousness" for those who "love [Christ's] appearing" -- the rapture. Some will lose their crown due to false eschatology or backsliding, I believe.

As I don't share your eshatology, the whole idea of churches (in the sense of local bodies of people who are "in Christ") being "left behind" is strange to me. (It seems you are saying that I therefore won't get a crown - I'm not sure where that idea comes from, that a believer's eligibility for a crown depends upon his right understanding of eschatology. 2 Timothy 4.8 says that a crown of glory shall be given to all who love Christ's appearing, not just those who have a perfect understanding of it). I know Jesus talked about unbelievers being left, but churches?

There's actually 2 things in the passage that point me to this. 1) The loaves are "barley loaves." Barley (vs. wheat) was the common grain representing the Gentiles (see also Rev 6:6 for another application). 2) Fish represented Israel and 2, of course, the 2 witnesses that should come, Rev 11. Similarly, the woman is not mixing leaven into "wheat" in Mt 13:33 but into "meal," barley and wheat combined.

This is to designate that they are recovered (bread and fish) from an OT dispensation/gospel, the tribulation, as part of Israel.

I know -- tell me I have a vivid imagination and chaulk it up to boredom if you want. :laugh: No, there's more and it fits well biblically.

skypair

I really appreciate the fact that we seem to be able to have a good-natured debate, even though we don't always agree. Thank you Skypair. :laugh:

 

[skypair]

Why do you call John the "Revelator?"

He wrote "The Revelation" -- the last book of the Bible. I make the point because it seems he wrote more prophecy than people realize and it wasn't just in The Revelation.

Ever wonder, for instance, why Jesus took Peter, James, and John to all the "special events?" There are prophetic reasons here, too.

skypair

 

[skypair]

But what (apart from the number 5) shows you that the foolish virgins are linked to the 5 loaves? Do you believe that every time the number five is mentioned in the bible, or at least in the New Testament, it is a "sign of the church that was left behind"? Could it not just be, as the disciples told Jesus, that there there was a lad there with five loaves and two fish?

Ruins the theory, David! :laugh:

Mainly, John has already invited us to analyze the miracles as "signs." Dr Rogers used to have them all showing different details about salvation. I, by the Spirit, just happen to pick up on a prophetic thread. So no, every 5 does not speak to the left behind church.

Actually, there are 5 wise virgins, too, right? They can be verified in Rev 2-3 as well. And no, I don't think Jesus did serendipitous, meaningless "sign miracles."

As I don't share your eshatology, the whole idea of churches (in the sense of local bodies of people who are "in Christ") being "left behind" is strange to me.

David, do you believe in the "visible church" and the "invisible church?" These are what foolish and wise virgins respectively mean.

As to the "crown" thing -- it is required (as I see it) that one LOVE the Lord's appearing. Some -- and John suggests this is a possibility even among believers -- will not be so happy to see Jesus when He comes. Even Philly whom I believe ALL will be raptured will have those who lose their crown. They will not be "ready" and having us be ready is one reason why God hasn't revealed to us when that day will come.

skypair