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Female RC Priests
- Thread starter DHK
- Start date
DHK,
Incredible.
Sadly,
Mike
You are 100% correct. I honestly can not understand how Catholics are capable of spewing out such mind boggling nonsense with a straight face."Your commparison with the Protestants' faith changing while the "Catholic faith has remained consisstent over 2,000 years is bogus and ludicrous."
Incredible.
Sadly,
Mike
Regarding whether the Catholic denomination should "ordain" female "priests" or not is actually a moot point.
There has not been a God ordained "priesthood" for over 2000 years now.
...meaning in the way in which the Catholic Church views their "priesthood".
Anything they believe or dont believe about their "priesthood" is utterly irelavent.
The only priesthood that God has had anything to do with for the past 2000 years is the priesthood He has ordained for this dispensation...the priesthood of the believer.
"Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men but chosen by God as precious. You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."
All born again people are "priests" of the most high God.
What the priesthood once represented...and the Catholic Church decieves their people into believing is still in effect...is a group of people who are the "go between", or intermediary between the "lay" people and God.
That ceased being the case 2000 years ago. We have no more "go between". Ever believer is connected to God personally, through the Holy Spirits "sealing" of the believer into the body of Christ.
God bless,
Mike
There has not been a God ordained "priesthood" for over 2000 years now.
...meaning in the way in which the Catholic Church views their "priesthood".
Anything they believe or dont believe about their "priesthood" is utterly irelavent.
The only priesthood that God has had anything to do with for the past 2000 years is the priesthood He has ordained for this dispensation...the priesthood of the believer.
"Coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected indeed by men but chosen by God as precious. You also, as living stones, are being built up a spiritual house, a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ."
All born again people are "priests" of the most high God.
What the priesthood once represented...and the Catholic Church decieves their people into believing is still in effect...is a group of people who are the "go between", or intermediary between the "lay" people and God.
That ceased being the case 2000 years ago. We have no more "go between". Ever believer is connected to God personally, through the Holy Spirits "sealing" of the believer into the body of Christ.
God bless,
Mike
Born Again Catholic, incredibly, said...
Lets see...God began the concept of "sola scriptura" by chiseling the 1st commandments into stone with His own finger.
He continued through the old testament times with scrolls, the new testament times the same way, and later in new testament times with books.
And the principle of "sola scriptura" has consistently been thundered by God to us from the historical, wisdom, poetical and prophetic scriptures, and finally from the new covenant scriptures.
But BAC wants to know the year whan it became true.
Its almost incomprehensibly sad.
Mike
Oh my."In what year do you believe the doctrine of sola scriptura first became binding on christians and provide Biblical support"
Lets see...God began the concept of "sola scriptura" by chiseling the 1st commandments into stone with His own finger.
He continued through the old testament times with scrolls, the new testament times the same way, and later in new testament times with books.
And the principle of "sola scriptura" has consistently been thundered by God to us from the historical, wisdom, poetical and prophetic scriptures, and finally from the new covenant scriptures.
But BAC wants to know the year whan it became true.
Its almost incomprehensibly sad.
Mike
Born Again Catholic
New Member
What is sad is that the Bible says one thing about Tradition yet you teach another, then make up a doctrine (sola scriptura) not found in the Bible to refute what the Bible does teach about tradition. It is so much like the Mormons and JW's its scary.
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess. 2:15)
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2).
"Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (2 Tim. 1:13-14).
"You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:1-2).
"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).
"‘Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete" (2 John 12).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess. 2:15)
"I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you" (1 Cor. 11:2).
"Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us" (2 Tim. 1:13-14).
"You, then, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus, and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Tim. 2:1-2).
"First of all you must understand this, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one’s own interpretation, because no prophecy ever came by the impulse of man, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God" (2 Peter 1:20-21).
"‘Though I have much to write to you, I would rather not use paper and ink, but I hope to come to see you and talk with you face to face, so that our joy may be complete" (2 John 12).
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Let's make sense here. What did Timothy hear from Paul?Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
What is sad is that the Bible says one thing about Tradition yet you teach another, then make up a doctrine (sola scriptura) not found in the Bible to refute what the Bible does teach about tradition. It is so much like the Mormons and JW's its scary.
What did the Corinthians hear from Paul?
Did Paul teach them out of the Book of Mormon?
Did Paul teach them the doctrins of Charles Taze Russel?
No, he taught them the truths that we now find in the New Testament. He taught them the truths that we also find in the Old Testament. He taught them from the Scriptura. What he taught was Scriptura. It was sola scriptura all the way. Everything was based on Scripture. There was no tradition involved. I ask you again. How much tradition, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia's definition, can one accumulate between the death of Christ (29 A.D.) and the writing of these epistles that you are referring to (ca. 55 A.D.)??
DHK
Born Again Catholic
New Member
Apparently enough for scripture to tell you to follow Tradition, (even taking your ridiculous assumption for granted).How much tradition, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia's definition, can one accumulate between the death of Christ (29 A.D.) and the writing of these epistles that you are referring to (ca. 55 A.D.)??
Again your man made sola scriptura belief is completely contradictory to scripture, your defense now seems to be that scripture may tell me to follow tradition but their couldn't be enough of it to make it important and if there was enough tradition for the early christians to follow that command expired after the epistles were written even though that man made belief isn't taught in the Bible either.
Sad, sad, sad
Apparently enough for scripture to tell you to follow Tradition, (even taking your ridiculous assumption for granted).Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> How much tradition, according to the Catholic Encyclopedia's definition, can one accumulate between the death of Christ (29 A.D.) and the writing of these epistles that you are referring to (ca. 55 A.D.)??
Again your man made sola scriptura belief is completely contradictory to scripture, your defense now seems to be that scripture may tell me to follow tradition but their couldn't be enough of it to make it important and if there was enough tradition for the early christians to follow that command expired after the epistles were written even though that man made belief isn't taught in the Bible either.
Sad, sad, sad </font>[/QUOTE]The sad thing is that you are stuck on the English word Tradition, which doesn't mean the same as the Catholic word "tradition." You are trying to force your theology according to your definition of words into the Bible. That is bad hermeneutics and won't work here. Biblical words have Biblical definitions not Catholic definitions!
The definition of the word "tadition" here is simply truth. It is the truth of the Word of God that Paul was teaching to Timothy. It is not tradition in the sense that Catholics defined tradition today. The New Testament was written in Greek not English. Biblical words have Biblical definitions, not Catholic definitions. Please keep that in mind. The word "tradition" in the Bible is not a Catholic word.
DHK
Born Again Catholic
New Member
Lets assume that we use your definition it stills blows sola scriptura out of the water
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions (truths per DHK) which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess. 2:15)
Based on your own interpretation then christians are to hold to the truths taught either by word of mouth or lettter, this is in direct opposition to sola scriptura.
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions (truths per DHK) which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess. 2:15)
Based on your own interpretation then christians are to hold to the truths taught either by word of mouth or lettter, this is in direct opposition to sola scriptura.
Since the "tradition" that Paul taught was the "truth" of the Word of God, "whether written or oral" it is sola scriptura. It is using the Word of God as the one and only authority which Paul was trained to do from a child (Isa.8:20).Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
Lets assume that we use your definition it stills blows sola scriptura out of the water
"So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions (truths per DHK) which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter." (2 Thess. 2:15)
Based on your own interpretation then christians are to hold to the truths taught either by word of mouth or lettter, this is in direct opposition to sola scriptura.
Today we do the samae thing in our evangelism. We go and tell others of Jesus Christ. We spread the gospel. We preach Christ, and him crucified. We may have a Bible. We may not. Whether we do or not is irrelevant. Christ is preached and the gospel is spread both orally and in written form. You may want to call that tradition. It is not tradition in the Catholic sense, but it is tradition in the Biblical sense--the truth of the Word of God. It is also sola scriptura.
DHK
Born Again Catholic
New Member
Now you have change your definition of traditions from simply being truths to only written truths. please make up your mind.
So based on that logic people should have ignored the Apostles teachings in the decades before any of the NT was actually written.
So based on that logic people should have ignored the Apostles teachings in the decades before any of the NT was actually written.
Not at all.Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
Now you have change your definition of traditions from simply being truths to only written truths. please make up your mind.
So based on that logic people should have ignored the Apostles teachings in the decades before any of the NT was actually written.
traditions--truths delivered and transmitted orally, or in writing (2Th 3:6; 1Co 11:2; Greek, "traditions"). The Greek verb from which the noun comes, is used by Paul in 1Co 11:23; 15:3. From the three passages in which "tradition" is used in a good sense, Rome has argued for her accumulation of uninspired traditions, virtually overriding God's Word, while put forward as of co-ordinate authority with it. She forgets the ten passages (Mt 15:2-3,6) stigmatizing man's uninspired traditions. Not even the apostles' sayings were all inspired (for example, Peter's dissimulation, Ga 2:11-14), but only when they claimed to be so, as in their words afterwards embodied in their canonical writings. Oral inspiration was necessary in their case, until the canon of the written Word should be complete; they proved their possession of inspiration by miracles wrought in support of the new revelation, which revelation, moreover, accorded with the existing Old Testament revelation; an additional test needed besides miracles (compare De 13:1-6; Ac 17:11). When the canon was complete, the infallibility of the living men was transferred to the written Word, now the sole unerring guide, interpreted by the Holy Spirit. Little else has come down to us by the most ancient and universal tradition save this, the all-sufficiency of Scripture for salvation. Therefore, by tradition, we are constrained to cast off all tradition not contained in, or not provable by, Scripture. The Fathers are valuable witnesses to historical facts, which give force to the intimations of Scripture: such as the Christian Lord's day, the baptism of infants, and the genuineness of the canon of Scripture. Tradition (in the sense of human testimony) cannot establish a doctrine, but can authenticate a fact, such as the facts just mentioned. Inspired tradition, in Paul's sense, is not a supplementary oral tradition completing our written Word, but it is identical with the written Word now complete; then the latter not being complete, the tradition was necessarily in part oral, in part written, and continued so until, the latter being complete before the death of St. John, the last apostle, the former was no longer needed. Scripture is, according to Paul, the complete and sufficient rule in all that appertains to making "the man of God perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works" (2Ti 3:16-17). It is by leaving Paul's God-inspired tradition for human traditions that Rome has become the forerunner and parent of the Antichrist. It is striking that, from this very chapter denouncing Antichrist, she should draw an argument for her "traditions" by which she fosters anti-Christianity. Because the apostles' oral word was as trustworthy as their written word, it by no means follows that the oral word of those not apostles is as trustworthy as the written word of those who were apostles or inspired evangelists. No tradition of the apostles except their written word can be proved genuine on satisfactory evidence. We are no more bound to accept implicitly the Fathers' interpretations of Scripture, because we accept the Scripture canon on their testimony, than we are bound to accept the Jews' interpretation of the Old Testament, because we accept the Old Testament canon on their testimony. (Jamieson, Faucett, and Brown)
Born Again Catholic
New Member
Not taught in the Bible another made up protestant tradition, show me any scripture which supports this, previously you said their was no need for oral inspiration as it was sola scriptura from day one of christianity, do you now atleast admit sola scriptura couldn't have worked prior to the writing of the books of the NT (not that it works now either) again make up your mind your defense for sola scriptura seems to constantly take differing viewpoints and definitions depending on the question askedOral inspiration was necessary in their case, until the canon of the written Word should be complete
Not taught in the Bible another made up protestant tradition, show me any scripture which supports this fantasy of a transfer of infallibility from the oral to the writtenWhen the canon was complete, the infallibility of the living men was transferred to the written Word, now the sole unerring guide
Originally posted by Born Again Catholic:
[qb]Oral inspiration was necessary in their case, until the canon of the written Word should be completeIt is taught in the Scriptures. God gave the gifts of the Spirit for this exact purpose:Not taught in the Bible another made up protestant tradition, show me any scripture which supports this, previously you said their was no need for oral inspiration as it was sola scriptura from day one of christianity, do you now atleast admit sola scriptura couldn't have worked prior to the writing of the books of the NT (not that it works now either) again make up your mind your defense for sola scriptura seems to constantly take differing viewpoints and definitions depending on the question asked
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
These three gifts: tongues, prophescy, and "revelatory" knowledge, where three gifts that were given to New Testament believers, especially the Apostles and those associated with them, to give the truth that was missing from the the Bible until the New Testament was completed. By the first century (the approximate date of the completion of the NT), these gifts had ceased. They were not longer needed.
As it says: They will "fail," "cease," "pass away."
They were just temporary gifts, that are no longer in operation today. They ceased at the end of the first century for we have the completed Word of God today, and no longer need any other form of inspired revelation, which of course includes "Oral Traditon." The Bible is our sole source of authority in all matters of faith and practice, and that is sola scriptura.
When the canon was complete, the infallibility of the living men was transferred to the written Word, now the sole unerring guideI just have. Read above. Read also Hebrews 1:1,2.Not taught in the Bible another made up protestant tradition, show me any scripture which supports this fantasy of a transfer of infallibility from the oral to the written
Hebrews 1:1-2 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
--In the Old Testament God spoke through the prophets at various times in various ways.
But now in the New Testament he speaks through His Son, Jesus Christ. The way that He speaks through His Son, is through the Word. Everything that we need to know about Jesus Christ is found in the Word of God.
DHK
Your post contains a lot of conjecture and presupposition about the duration of spiritual gifts that simply isn't found in Scripture (it can I suppose be inferred from Scripture if you want ot do that but that's another matter); so much for your own Sola Scriptura rule - you don't even practise it yourself!
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
What have I not taught from Scripture. Everything I said is based on Scripture. Because you disagree with it doesn't make it false. I have done my study. I know what I believe and why I believe it. And all of it is Biblically based. That is sola scriptura--Bible based--the Bible as the basis of our beliefs. Using the Bible only for our beliefs. I have not used tradition or any other source for my beliefs. Maybe you have. And that is why you disagree. But I haven't. I have used sola scriptura.Originally posted by Matt Black:
Your post contains a lot of conjecture and presupposition about the duration of spiritual gifts that simply isn't found in Scripture (it can I suppose be inferred from Scripture if you want ot do that but that's another matter); so much for your own Sola Scriptura rule - you don't even practise it yourself!
Yours in Christ
Matt
DHK
PROPHECY IS STILL NEEDED
The Bible teaches that the gift of prophecy will still be active in these last days.
Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This "testimony of Jesus Christ" is the spirit of prophecy...
Rv:19:10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
In other words, Jesus will speak through His prophets in these last days.
Before the entrance of sin, Adam enjoyed open communion with his Maker; but since man separated himself from God by transgression, the human race has been cut off from this high privilege. By the plan of redemption, however, a way has been opened whereby the inhabitants of the earth may still have connection with heaven. God has communicated with men by His Spirit, and divine light has been imparted to the world by revelations to His chosen servants. "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21.
During the first twenty-five hundred years of human history, there was no written revelation. Those who had been taught of God, communicated their knowledge to others, and it was handed down from father to son, through successive generations. The preparation of the written word began in the time of Moses. Inspired revelations were then embodied in an inspired book. This work continued during the long period of sixteen hundred years--from Moses, the historian of creation and the law, to John, the recorder of the most sublime truths of the gospel.
The Bible points to God as its author; yet it was written by human hands; and in the varied style of its different books it presents the characteristics of the several writers. The truths revealed are all "given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16); yet they are expressed in the words of men. The Infinite One by His Holy Spirit has shed light into the minds and hearts of His servants. He has given dreams and visions, symbols and figures; and those to whom the truth was thus revealed have themselves embodied the thought in human language.
The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, and were written by His own hand. They are of divine, and not of human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14.
Written in different ages, by men who differed widely in rank and occupation, and in mental and spiritual endowments, the books of the Bible present a wide contrast in style, as well as a diversity in the nature of the subjects unfolded. Different forms of expression are employed by different writers; often the same truth is more strikingly presented by one than by another. And as several writers present a subject under varied aspects and relations, there may appear, to the superficial, careless, or prejudiced reader, to be discrepancy or contradiction, where the thoughtful, reverent student, with clearer insight, discerns the underlying harmony.
As presented through different individuals, the truth is brought out in its varied aspects. One writer is more strongly impressed with one phase of the subject; he grasps those points that harmonize with his experience or with his power of perception and appreciation; another seizes upon a different phase; and each, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, presents what is most forcibly impressed upon his own mind--a different aspect of the truth in each, but a perfect harmony through all. And the truths thus revealed unite to form a perfect whole, adapted to meet the wants of men in all the circumstances and experiences of life.
God has been pleased to communicate His truth to the world by human agencies, and He Himself, by His Holy Spirit, qualified men and enabled them to do this work. He guided the mind in the selection of what to speak and what to write. The treasure was entrusted to earthen vessels, yet it is, nonetheless, from Heaven. The testimony is conveyed through the imperfect expression of human language, yet it is the testimony of God; and the obedient, believing child of God beholds in it the glory of a divine power, full of grace and truth.
In His word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience. "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
Yet the fact that God has revealed His will to men through His word, has not rendered needless the continued presence and guiding of the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the Spirit was promised by our Saviour, to open the word to His servants, to illuminate and apply its teachings. And since it was the Spirit of God that inspired the Bible, it is impossible that the teaching of the Spirit should ever be contrary to that of the word.
The Spirit was not given--nor can it ever be bestowed-- to supersede the Bible; for the Scriptures explicitly state that the word of God is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Says the apostle John, "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1. And Isaiah declares, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.
Great reproach has been cast upon the work of the Holy Spirit by the errors of a class that, claiming its enlightenment, profess to have no further need of guidance from the word of God. They are governed by impressions which they regard as the voice of God in the soul. But the spirit that controls them is not the Spirit of God. This following of impressions, to the neglect of the Scriptures, can lead only to confusion, to deception and ruin. It serves only to further the designs of the evil one. Since the ministry of the Holy Spirit is of vital importance to the church of Christ, it is one of the devices of Satan, through the errors of extremists and fanatics, to cast contempt upon the work of the Spirit and cause the people of God to neglect this source of strength which our Lord Himself has provided.
In harmony with the word of God, His Spirit was to continue its work throughout the period of the gospel dispensation. During the ages while the Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament were being given, the Holy Spirit did not cease to communicate light to individual minds, apart from the revelations to be embodied in the Sacred Canon. The Bible itself relates how, through the Holy Spirit, men received warning, reproof, counsel, and instruction, in matters in no way relating to the giving of the Scriptures. And mention is made of prophets in different ages, of whose utterances nothing is recorded. In like manner, after the close of the canon of the Scripture, the Holy Spirit was still to continue its work, to enlighten, warn, and comfort the children of God.
Jesus promised His disciples, "The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: . . . and He will show you things to come." John 14:26; 16:13. Scripture plainly teaches that these promises, so far from being limited to apostolic days, extend to the church of Christ in all ages. The Saviour assures His followers, "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. And Paul declares that the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit were set in the church "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:12, 13.
For the believers at Ephesus the apostle prayed, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and . . . what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe." Ephesians 1:17-19. The ministry of the divine Spirit in enlightening the understanding and opening to the mind the deep things of God's holy word, was the blessing which Paul thus besought for the Ephesian church.
After the wonderful manifestation of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, Peter exhorted the people to repentance and baptism in the name of Christ, for the remission of their sins; and he said: "Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38, 39.
In immediate connection with the scenes of the great day of God, the Lord by the prophet Joel has promised a special manifestation of His Spirit. Joel 2:28. This prophecy received a partial fulfillment in the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost; but it will reach its full accomplishment in the manifestation of divine grace which will attend the closing work of the gospel.
The great controversy between good and evil will increase in intensity to the very close of time. In all ages the wrath of Satan has been manifested against the church of Christ; and God has bestowed His grace and Spirit upon His people to strengthen them to stand against the power of the evil one. When the apostles of Christ were to bear His gospel to the world and to record it for all future ages, they were especially endowed with the enlightenment of the Spirit. But as the church approaches her final deliverance, Satan is to work with greater power. He comes down "having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Revelation 12:12. He will work "with all power and signs and lying wonders." 2 Thessalonians 2:9. For six thousand years that mastermind that once was highest among the angels of God has been wholly bent to the work of deception and ruin. And all the depths of satanic skill and subtlety acquired, all the cruelty developed, during these struggles of the ages, will be brought to bear against God's people in the final conflict. And in this time of peril the followers of Christ are to bear to the world the warning of the Lord's second advent; and a people are to be prepared to stand before Him at His coming, "without spot, and blameless." 2 Peter 3:14. At this time the special endowment of divine grace and power is not less needful to the church than in apostolic days.
However, all of this being said, the Roman Catholic Church's "outside traditions" are hardly the spirit of prophecy. The idea in the Catholic Church is that some men are supposedly able to interpret the scriptures for everybody and they all must bow to their interpretation.
Matthew 23:
8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10: Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11: But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
...and a true prophet's words and counsel will not contradict from what is already written in the Word of God.
2Pt:1:20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
The Bible teaches that the gift of prophecy will still be active in these last days.
Rv:12:17: And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
This "testimony of Jesus Christ" is the spirit of prophecy...
Rv:19:10: And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
In other words, Jesus will speak through His prophets in these last days.
Before the entrance of sin, Adam enjoyed open communion with his Maker; but since man separated himself from God by transgression, the human race has been cut off from this high privilege. By the plan of redemption, however, a way has been opened whereby the inhabitants of the earth may still have connection with heaven. God has communicated with men by His Spirit, and divine light has been imparted to the world by revelations to His chosen servants. "Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost." 2 Peter 1:21.
During the first twenty-five hundred years of human history, there was no written revelation. Those who had been taught of God, communicated their knowledge to others, and it was handed down from father to son, through successive generations. The preparation of the written word began in the time of Moses. Inspired revelations were then embodied in an inspired book. This work continued during the long period of sixteen hundred years--from Moses, the historian of creation and the law, to John, the recorder of the most sublime truths of the gospel.
The Bible points to God as its author; yet it was written by human hands; and in the varied style of its different books it presents the characteristics of the several writers. The truths revealed are all "given by inspiration of God" (2 Timothy 3:16); yet they are expressed in the words of men. The Infinite One by His Holy Spirit has shed light into the minds and hearts of His servants. He has given dreams and visions, symbols and figures; and those to whom the truth was thus revealed have themselves embodied the thought in human language.
The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, and were written by His own hand. They are of divine, and not of human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14.
Written in different ages, by men who differed widely in rank and occupation, and in mental and spiritual endowments, the books of the Bible present a wide contrast in style, as well as a diversity in the nature of the subjects unfolded. Different forms of expression are employed by different writers; often the same truth is more strikingly presented by one than by another. And as several writers present a subject under varied aspects and relations, there may appear, to the superficial, careless, or prejudiced reader, to be discrepancy or contradiction, where the thoughtful, reverent student, with clearer insight, discerns the underlying harmony.
As presented through different individuals, the truth is brought out in its varied aspects. One writer is more strongly impressed with one phase of the subject; he grasps those points that harmonize with his experience or with his power of perception and appreciation; another seizes upon a different phase; and each, under the guidance of the Holy Spirit, presents what is most forcibly impressed upon his own mind--a different aspect of the truth in each, but a perfect harmony through all. And the truths thus revealed unite to form a perfect whole, adapted to meet the wants of men in all the circumstances and experiences of life.
God has been pleased to communicate His truth to the world by human agencies, and He Himself, by His Holy Spirit, qualified men and enabled them to do this work. He guided the mind in the selection of what to speak and what to write. The treasure was entrusted to earthen vessels, yet it is, nonetheless, from Heaven. The testimony is conveyed through the imperfect expression of human language, yet it is the testimony of God; and the obedient, believing child of God beholds in it the glory of a divine power, full of grace and truth.
In His word, God has committed to men the knowledge necessary for salvation. The Holy Scriptures are to be accepted as an authoritative, infallible revelation of His will. They are the standard of character, the revealer of doctrines, and the test of experience. "Every scripture inspired of God is also profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for instruction which is in righteousness; that the man of God may be complete, furnished completely unto every good work." 2 Timothy 3:16, 17
Yet the fact that God has revealed His will to men through His word, has not rendered needless the continued presence and guiding of the Holy Spirit. On the contrary, the Spirit was promised by our Saviour, to open the word to His servants, to illuminate and apply its teachings. And since it was the Spirit of God that inspired the Bible, it is impossible that the teaching of the Spirit should ever be contrary to that of the word.
The Spirit was not given--nor can it ever be bestowed-- to supersede the Bible; for the Scriptures explicitly state that the word of God is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. Says the apostle John, "Believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1. And Isaiah declares, "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Isaiah 8:20.
Great reproach has been cast upon the work of the Holy Spirit by the errors of a class that, claiming its enlightenment, profess to have no further need of guidance from the word of God. They are governed by impressions which they regard as the voice of God in the soul. But the spirit that controls them is not the Spirit of God. This following of impressions, to the neglect of the Scriptures, can lead only to confusion, to deception and ruin. It serves only to further the designs of the evil one. Since the ministry of the Holy Spirit is of vital importance to the church of Christ, it is one of the devices of Satan, through the errors of extremists and fanatics, to cast contempt upon the work of the Spirit and cause the people of God to neglect this source of strength which our Lord Himself has provided.
In harmony with the word of God, His Spirit was to continue its work throughout the period of the gospel dispensation. During the ages while the Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament were being given, the Holy Spirit did not cease to communicate light to individual minds, apart from the revelations to be embodied in the Sacred Canon. The Bible itself relates how, through the Holy Spirit, men received warning, reproof, counsel, and instruction, in matters in no way relating to the giving of the Scriptures. And mention is made of prophets in different ages, of whose utterances nothing is recorded. In like manner, after the close of the canon of the Scripture, the Holy Spirit was still to continue its work, to enlighten, warn, and comfort the children of God.
Jesus promised His disciples, "The Comforter which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you." "When He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth: . . . and He will show you things to come." John 14:26; 16:13. Scripture plainly teaches that these promises, so far from being limited to apostolic days, extend to the church of Christ in all ages. The Saviour assures His followers, "I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world." Matthew 28:20. And Paul declares that the gifts and manifestations of the Spirit were set in the church "for the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ: till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ." Ephesians 4:12, 13.
For the believers at Ephesus the apostle prayed, "That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the Spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of Him: the eyes of your understanding being enlightened; that ye may know what is the hope of His calling, and . . . what is the exceeding greatness of His power to usward who believe." Ephesians 1:17-19. The ministry of the divine Spirit in enlightening the understanding and opening to the mind the deep things of God's holy word, was the blessing which Paul thus besought for the Ephesian church.
After the wonderful manifestation of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost, Peter exhorted the people to repentance and baptism in the name of Christ, for the remission of their sins; and he said: "Ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call." Acts 2:38, 39.
In immediate connection with the scenes of the great day of God, the Lord by the prophet Joel has promised a special manifestation of His Spirit. Joel 2:28. This prophecy received a partial fulfillment in the outpouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost; but it will reach its full accomplishment in the manifestation of divine grace which will attend the closing work of the gospel.
The great controversy between good and evil will increase in intensity to the very close of time. In all ages the wrath of Satan has been manifested against the church of Christ; and God has bestowed His grace and Spirit upon His people to strengthen them to stand against the power of the evil one. When the apostles of Christ were to bear His gospel to the world and to record it for all future ages, they were especially endowed with the enlightenment of the Spirit. But as the church approaches her final deliverance, Satan is to work with greater power. He comes down "having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time." Revelation 12:12. He will work "with all power and signs and lying wonders." 2 Thessalonians 2:9. For six thousand years that mastermind that once was highest among the angels of God has been wholly bent to the work of deception and ruin. And all the depths of satanic skill and subtlety acquired, all the cruelty developed, during these struggles of the ages, will be brought to bear against God's people in the final conflict. And in this time of peril the followers of Christ are to bear to the world the warning of the Lord's second advent; and a people are to be prepared to stand before Him at His coming, "without spot, and blameless." 2 Peter 3:14. At this time the special endowment of divine grace and power is not less needful to the church than in apostolic days.
However, all of this being said, the Roman Catholic Church's "outside traditions" are hardly the spirit of prophecy. The idea in the Catholic Church is that some men are supposedly able to interpret the scriptures for everybody and they all must bow to their interpretation.
Matthew 23:
8: But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren.
9: And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
10: Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ.
11: But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant.
...and a true prophet's words and counsel will not contradict from what is already written in the Word of God.
2Pt:1:20: Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.
"Tradition" means to make up your own rules and your own ideas, contrary or in addition to the Bible. Such as how the Roman Catholic Church substituted the Seventh Day Bible Sabbath for Sunday keeping. They decided that the Pope spoke in the place of God and could change the Bible and God's commandments. That is going by church tradition instead of by the Word of God.
Mk:7:8: For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mk:7:13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
"Ye hypocrites," He said, addressing the wily spies, "well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoreth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." The words of Christ were an arraignment of the whole system of Pharisaism. He declared that by placing their requirements above the divine precepts the rabbis were setting themselves above God.
The substitution of the precepts of men for the commandments of God has not ceased. Even among Christians are found institutions and usages that have no better foundation than the traditions of the fathers. Such institutions, resting upon mere human authority, have supplanted those of divine appointment. Men cling to their traditions, and revere their customs, and cherish hatred against those who seek to show them their error. In this day, when we are bidden to call attention to the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, we see the same enmity as was manifested in the days of Christ. Of the remnant people of God it is written, "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:17.
Mk:7:8: For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, as the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
Mk:7:9: And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.
Mk:7:13: Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.
Mt:15:3: But he answered and said unto them, Why do ye also transgress the commandment of God by your tradition?
"Ye hypocrites," He said, addressing the wily spies, "well did Esaias prophesy of you, saying, This people draweth nigh unto Me with their mouth, and honoreth Me with their lips; but their heart is far from Me. But in vain they do worship Me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." The words of Christ were an arraignment of the whole system of Pharisaism. He declared that by placing their requirements above the divine precepts the rabbis were setting themselves above God.
The substitution of the precepts of men for the commandments of God has not ceased. Even among Christians are found institutions and usages that have no better foundation than the traditions of the fathers. Such institutions, resting upon mere human authority, have supplanted those of divine appointment. Men cling to their traditions, and revere their customs, and cherish hatred against those who seek to show them their error. In this day, when we are bidden to call attention to the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus, we see the same enmity as was manifested in the days of Christ. Of the remnant people of God it is written, "The dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." Rev. 12:17.
Ah, but you see, DHK, both you and Claudia have used sola Scriptura and yet have arrived at radically different conclusions on the issue of spiritual gifts. So, what you're both really saying is 'sola Scriptura=The Bible+my interpretation of the Bible'...er, which isn't sola Scriptura at all; it's 'Scripture+(your own individual) tradition', the very thing you accuse others of doing!
Yours in Christ
Matt
Yours in Christ
Matt
Matt.
Examine a couple of quotes by Claudia:
Only through sola scriptura, studied objectively, can one come to the truth.
DHK
Examine a couple of quotes by Claudia:
The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, and were written by His own hand. They are of divine, and not of human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14.
Such quotes or theology is not from the Bible. They are more based on tradition rather than the Word of God. She is forced to admit such things because of her SDA bias. She of a necessity must believe in the presence of the gift of prophecy because the whole of SDA was founded on Ellen G. White. To deny the gift of prophecy is to deny the founder of their religion. Thus with rose-colored glasses she looks at the Bible, and is prohibited from looking at it objectively. The same is true of you when it comes to the subject of baptism (when you side with the RCC view of baptism). It is believe or get excommunicated. You have no choice. Sola Scriptura teaches that the RCC is absolutely wrong on this point. It teaches that their tradition is heresy. But they will go on in their traditions, teaching their traditions as the commandments of God. Christ condemned this.In harmony with the word of God, His Spirit was to continue its work throughout the period of the gospel dispensation. During the ages while the Scriptures of both the Old and the New Testament were being given, the Holy Spirit did not cease to communicate light to individual minds, apart from the revelations to be embodied in the Sacred Canon. The Bible itself relates how, through the Holy Spirit, men received warning, reproof, counsel, and instruction, in matters in no way relating to the giving of the Scriptures. And mention is made of prophets in different ages, of whose utterances nothing is recorded. In like manner, after the close of the canon of the Scripture, the Holy Spirit was still to continue its work, to enlighten, warn, and comfort the children of God.
Only through sola scriptura, studied objectively, can one come to the truth.
DHK