"Few be there that find it"

[Adonia]

I only presented what God says in His Word. How you, as Christian, cannot comprehend what God has said is troubling indeed.

Here it is. It is found in John Chapter 3...John is one of the four Gospels found at the beginning of the NT.
"Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.".

These things can be easily verified if one studies the Scripture. You should do some research before you judge what another has said.

By all means, let's study the Scriptures, this time Romans 9: 15-18.

15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

It only makes sense, that if God desires to have mercy in this instance, He can have mercy in any instance. He calls the shots!

 

[steaver]

.

We are not talking about Jesus here, we are not talking about what was written in the Scriptures. We are talking about God, the all powerful, the all knowing, the creator of every living person that exists. Does God the Father have to power to grant mercy to whom he wants? This is a simple stand alone question with a simple answer. Yes or no?

How would you know if it is not written? Did God personally speak in your ear?

 

[steaver]

By all means, let's study the Scriptures, this time Romans 9: 15-18.

15 For he says to Moses: “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."

16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy 17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

It only makes sense, that if God desires to have mercy in this instance, He can have mercy in any instance. He calls the shots!

Ok, so I did not know Catholics were Calvinist. Now I understand where you are coming from. I deliberated Calvinism for about three years. I found it lacking if one takes into consideration the full counsel of God's Word. So I have no desire to hash out Calvinism again. Calvinism declares God picks some He wants to save, causing them to believe, and leaves the majority to hell. If that is what you want to believe then have at it.

 

[utilyan]

Actually your position is the exact position of Calvinism. You believe Jesus Christ makes a person believe as you plead the example of Paul, in your view, being forced to follow Jesus Christ.

There is absolutely no warrant for you or I or anyone to receive any mercy, yet Jesus Christ intervened, this is an act of mercy and forgiveness. So Paul is no exception to mercy and forgiveness.

Are you suggesting that you merited your own salvation and Paul did not?

In addition to your position being totally illogical, you have the word of Jesus Christ Himself on this topic which you have never been able to address, you simply ignore what He has said...

"He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God....
He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

No its not. And if anyone were to state that I or the Catholic church said we merited our own salvation they are guaranteed LIARS.

See we don't prioritize salvation, we understand that every single soul is precious to God.


Same chapter you mentioned:
John 6

36“He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him.”


To obey is what? Love God and Love Neighbor.

If I told two folks trust the driving instructor and you will past your driving test. One listens to the instructions and follows them, and the other Trusts and has faith and believes his instructor but doesn't actually do what is taught,

That second guy is going to run right into a tree. Oh well but I trusted and had faith in him says the 2nd guy why did I hit this tree?


I can find Love God and Love neighbor in every religion you can shake a stick at. Jesus had no problem finding it in the good Samaritan.


Romans 2

12For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified. 14For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.



When we Christians are closer to looking like Nazis, we are doing it wrong. It certainly is with this Pharisee attitude of others.

John 10
37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.”

John 14
11“Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves.

^If I were a Calvinist these statements would be totally nuts, Because these statements indicate that a person has the scope of understanding rather getting light switch flicked on by God.

JOHN 14 verse especially smashes your challenge.

He doesn't say Believe in me or your toast. You wish he did, don't you?


Otherwise is option 2. Believe because the works themselves.

The works themselves is LOVE GOD and LOVE NEIGHBOR. This is the highest priority it is BUILT into the first commandment.

1 john 4

8Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

The further you step away from love the more evil it is.

Anyone who can tell the difference between Love and God still has plenty still to learn about both.

 

[steaver]

No its not. And if anyone were to state that I or the Catholic church said we merited our own salvation they are guaranteed LIARS.

Now wait a minute. You were just arguing that Paul was a murderer and hated his neighbour (Christians) hunting them down and killing them but Jesus saved him anyways, he didn't need to love his neighbour, he didn't even need to trust in the instructor, unmerited mercy. Now you are arguing that a person must trust the instructor and demonstrate he did listen and do as his instructor said to do by loving his neighbour or he is not saved. It doesn't appear you know what you believe.

 

[Adonia]

How would you know if it is not written? Did God personally speak in your ear?

Steaver, this is what I said: "We are not talking about Jesus here, we are not talking about what was written in the Scriptures. We are talking about God, the all powerful, the all knowing........". I mean in the context of the question that I am asking you, I am not invoking what IS written in the Scriptures that you cited. I asked a specific question and you will not answer it. I mean really, in your heart and in your mind you have got to know that God is all powerful, that He can do anything He wants, but for some reason you do not want to answer in the affirmative that God can indeed bestow mercy on whom He decides to.

What is the matter, is your fundamentalist interpretation of the Scriptures blown apart if God bestows His mercy on a Hindu or an atheist and allows them eternal rest in heaven? Has He somehow broken His promises to you if He were to do such a thing? Come on brother, confess your fears here, you are among friends.

 

[Adonia]

Ok, so I did not know Catholics were Calvinist. Now I understand where you are coming from. I deliberated Calvinism for about three years. I found it lacking if one takes into consideration the full counsel of God's Word. So I have no desire to hash out Calvinism again. Calvinism declares God picks some He wants to save, causing them to believe, and leaves the majority to hell. If that is what you want to believe then have at it.

Calvinist? Good grief, what does Calvinist doctrine have to do with the basic Christian belief that God is all powerful and all knowing? He is the first person of the Triune Godhead, He comes first, He made everything and as such is in control of everything and can do anything He wants. This fact cannot be denied and if you do deny it, then you have some serious theological problems.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Paul did not accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, Paul did not have faith in Jesus, Paul had no regeneration

'For we ourselves were also once disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
But when the kindness and the love of God our saviour toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and the renewing of the Holy Spirit' (Titus 3:3-5).

 

[steaver]

What is the matter, is your fundamentalist interpretation of the Scriptures blown apart if God bestows His mercy on a Hindu or an atheist and allows them eternal rest in heaven? Has He somehow broken His promises to you if He were to do such a thing? Come on brother, confess your fears here, you are among friends.

Lol, good one! No fears here brother. Actually God cannot do anything He wants. Let me give you some examples found in the Scriptures. Yes, the Scriptures, the place where human beings learn from God what He can and cannot do.

We learn from the Scriptures God cannot lie..."In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" (Tit 1:2)...keep this in mind.

We also learn from the Scriptures all things are possible with God..."And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible." (Mark 10:27)...appears we have a contradiction, but of course we do not.

Do you think it is possible for God to lie? Of course not, thus we understand when Jesus said all things are possible with God, lying is excluded. Thus, anything God said would happen or would not happen MUST happen or not happen.

Ok, the foundation is laid. All things are possible with God as long as that thing does not make God out to be a liar.

Let's take your position and see if it actually works. You say God can bestow His mercy on anyone He wants and allow them eternal life. How do we test your belief? We go to God's Word!

We know that Judas was lost even though Jesus chose Judas to be one of His twelve disciples. God could have had mercy on Judas and saved him, right? Wrong. If God would have saved Judas, God would be found a liar for God already told us the son of perdition would not be saved. And why would he not be saved? Jesus tells us..."While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled." (John 17:12).

When God says something, it must be fulfilled. Otherwise, God would be a liar. As much as you want to wish God can just randomly save a person without His written requirements, God would be found a liar under your erroneous beliefs.

So once again I present what has been written, which must be fulfilled, unless God be found a liar...

"For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God."

What about those who never heard? What about infants? What about the mentally retarded? God does not tell us, but He does tell us about those who can hear and do hear.

"And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." (Mark16:16)

So those Muslims, Hindus, Atheist who hear and do not believe SHALL be damned. There is no "you don't know, God can have mercy on them anyways". No, God would be a liar then, we do know because God said so. Your wishing will be found as wood, hay and stubble. Go and preach the Gospel and warn everyone you preach to the consequences of rejecting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for them and stop this wishy washy false gospel that God could save them anyways. This causes laziness in evangelism and worse seals souls to hell.

 

[Adonia]

We learn from the Scriptures God cannot lie..."In hope of eternal life, which God, that cannot lie, promised before the world began;" (Tit 1:2)...keep this in mind.

How is Him giving mercy to whom He want's lying? The fact is, it isn't. (As I clearly pointed out in Romans - which you so conveniently reject)

How about the Jews, they don't believe in Jesus, are they damned too?

If a Christian doesn't see the "born again" concept exactly as you do, they won't see heaven either?

 

[steaver]

How is Him giving mercy to whom He want's lying?

That is simple to answer by you answering a question. Could God have given Judas mercy and saved him?

How about the Jews, they don't believe in Jesus, are they damned too?

"Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again."

"(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day." (Ro11:8)

A group of Jews came to hear Paul concerning Jesus and the Kingdom of God as recorded in Acts 28...

(23) "And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening.
(24) And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.
(25) And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers,
(26) Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive:
(27) For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
(28) Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.
(29) And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.
(30) And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him,
(31) Preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him."

If a Christian doesn't see the "born again" concept exactly as you do, they won't see heaven either?

"Christian" is defined in the Scripture. One requirement to be a Christian is to be born-again which is believing Jesus is the Son of God (John 3). Jesus spoke very clearly, those who believe not are condemned. Not a concept up for debate, unless of course you wish to debate what Jesus said. I'm listening...

 

[steaver]

18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

It only makes sense, that if God desires to have mercy in this instance, He can have mercy in any instance. He calls the shots!

As we see, God 's desire in this instance was to harden Pharaoh's heart. Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Do you think maybe because Pharaoh was determined to not believe God? Pharaoh certainly displayed exactly what God said he would display and after some back and forth, Pharaoh changing his heart to let them go, then changing it back to not, God then hardened his heart and it was sealed in the unbelief state.

As you read on in Romans you will again see the qualifier for God's mercy........belief.

"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness". Not works, his works fulfilled his confession of faith and his faith was made complete..... "shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works". "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone".

 

[utilyan]

As we see, God 's desire in this instance was to harden Pharaoh's heart. Why did God harden Pharaoh's heart? Do you think maybe because Pharaoh was determined to not believe God? Pharaoh certainly displayed exactly what God said he would display and after some back and forth, Pharaoh changing his heart to let them go, then changing it back to not, God then hardened his heart and it was sealed in the unbelief state.

As you read on in Romans you will again see the qualifier for God's mercy........belief.

"Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness". Not works, his works fulfilled his confession of faith and his faith was made complete..... "shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works". "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone".

Satan has belief and no love of God. Paul had no belief to warrant the merciful act of Christ's intervention. Jesus could have picked anyone to do Paul's work.

With inside of looking to kill Christians Paul was given an act of mercy by Jesus Christ.

 

[steaver]

Paul had no belief to warrant the merciful act of Christ's intervention.

Nor did you, nor did I. Until Christ intervened. No Christian disagrees on Christ first.

What Christians do disagree on is if the Christian is made to believe or is the Christian presented a choice to believe. I believe Christ intervenes and a choice must be made, that even Paul when confronted had to accept Jesus is Lord and follow. Calvinist believe Christ intervenes and makes one believe, that Paul had no choice in the matter. Which position do you hold to?

 

[utilyan]

Nor did you, nor did I. Until Christ intervened. No Christian disagrees on Christ first.

What Christians do disagree on is if the Christian is made to believe or is the Christian presented a choice to believe. I believe Christ intervenes and a choice must be made, that even Paul when confronted had to accept Jesus is Lord and follow. Calvinist believe Christ intervenes and makes one believe, that Paul had no choice in the matter. Which position do you hold to?

Both and Neither. Earlier you mentioned the branches grafted in or not. God can allow you to become evil for the purpose and sake of another becoming good.

"For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience"

For example if it were not for Jewish disobedience there is no gentile obedience.

Romans 11

28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

You would say those Jews, hey they are enemies not believing Jesus is God. But from the standpoint of God they are beloved!

"because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy"

We Catholics are given this MERCY and we dump it right back at the Jews.
We are going to let it run past the brim to promote and have good Jews good Samaritans, good Muslims good Buddhist, even good Calvinists and good Baptist.


I view your priority of "Belief" flawed IF it is devoid of Love.

You are not a Calvinist, but anyone who believes in Faith Alone will eventually lead to Calvinism if they actually follow their own point of logic.


If Jesus Christ shows up in a brilliant light and blasts a Muslim vision blind, I'm going to put my money on that Muslim becoming Christian.

There is no such thing as a atheist standing before God.

People have great reasons for not believing in God and not believing in Jesus. And there are even Christians who "bet" there is a God, want badly to believe, and others who for peer pressure, fitting in and telling people what they want to hear "believe" in Jesus.



There Is plenty of people of here would not accept Jesus' character or God's as I present it.

If Muslim accepts a Jehovah's witness view of Jesus does he pass your criteria of belief?
I bet he does not.


Your cry for particular belief is like a Gnosticism, where you have to understand and have particular knowledge to be saved.

What I am telling you is God's #1 priority is Love. Another way of saying that is God's #1 priority is God. Another way of saying that is God's #1 priority is helping you.

You know you probably have no doubt that a person would not refuse to receive millions of dollars if you could give it to them, so the lesson is why would it even cross your mind or tarnish your own faith that anyone would refuse Jesus Christ ? It is very much within God's power to hold it back, their conversion, FOR YOUR SAKE.

 

[steaver]

Both and Neither.

Which proves you have no idea. It appears you have created your own religion. I don;t even think it resembles Catholicism. Is all these twist and turns "Both and Neither" spelled out in the RCC doctrines somewhere ? Or did you come up with this stuff on your own?

 

[steaver]

What I am telling you is God's #1 priority is Love. Another way of saying that is God's #1 priority is God.

I know exactly what you are telling me. Problem is, Paul totally blows your Love void of belief religion right out of the water! I showed you this before and you continue on with blinders.

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge". (Ro 10)

See that??? They have a zeal (great love) for God, BUT not according to knowledge. Paul, God's Word, judges them unsaved!

Paul goes on...

"But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

And you could plug in any religion or sect in there. Why does God call them disobedient? They refuse to believe on Jesus Christ, they refuse to believe on the Truth. Oh they have a zeal for God, but there is no knowledge of Jesus Christ and His outline to salvation. "But unto the JWs he saith, unto the Mormons he saith, unto all who do not believe he saith........

There you have it. Zeal void of belief in Jesus Christ does not cut it.

 

[utilyan]

I know exactly what you are telling me. Problem is, Paul totally blows your Love void of belief religion right out of the water! I showed you this before and you continue on with blinders.

"Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge". (Ro 10)

See that??? They have a zeal (great love) for God, BUT not according to knowledge. Paul, God's Word, judges them unsaved!

Paul goes on...

"But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

And you could plug in any religion or sect in there. Why does God call them disobedient? They refuse to believe on Jesus Christ, they refuse to believe on the Truth. Oh they have a zeal for God, but there is no knowledge of Jesus Christ and His outline to salvation. "But unto the JWs he saith, unto the Mormons he saith, unto all who do not believe he saith........

There you have it. Zeal void of belief in Jesus Christ does not cut it.

Nothing in that sentence indicates they won't be saved.

You are reading into the text.

In fact that verse: "Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge". (Ro 10)

Thats what I think of you. You got the heart for it, Its my hope that you will be saved, but you have the wrong understanding.

But nothing about what I said or Paul says "Your not going to be saved" because you have bad understanding.



Gnostic knowledge is not a saving factor.

You can have complete knowledge, complete understanding. know all the mysteries concerning God, have all the belief obviously if you know everything, have all faith, and it is NOTHING BUT TRASH.

1 Corinthians 13

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.



Now I'm giving you a FLAT OUT direct verse against prophecy, mystery, knowledge, faith being NOTHING. And LOVE being the prime important factor.

I don't have to change meanings, insert definitions, I can point right at that verse and say THATS IT.

Paul totally blows your idea of knowledge being a factor out of the water.

Every attempt to undermine, work around and dodge LOVE is an act of evil by its essence. When something is devoid of love it is sin.




"Which proves you have no idea. It appears you have created your own religion. I don;t even think it resembles Catholicism. Is all these twist and turns "Both and Neither" spelled out in the RCC doctrines somewhere ? Or did you come up with this stuff on your own?"

Because truth often can be a paradox. There is predestination and free will. I don't say there is only predestination and say there is no free will, nor do I take the other extreme that there is no predestination and only free will.

You can make blue cup or light-bulb it shines blue and a red one shines red. Or like a music record its going to play what it will play, but the essence of who you are, your free will decides what its going to play.

A "steaver" does exaclty what a "steaver" does. God created you, and you do freely make your choices all of which God knows already. You did not create yourself, God made you.


Do you remember making a choice to exist or did God "FORCE" you to exist? God is a prime ingredient in your life, you are a co-author with God setting the meaning of what it means to be a "Steaver".

 

[steaver]

Nothing in that sentence indicates they won't be saved.

You are reading into the text.

And you choose to be blind. I cannot help you if you choose blindness to the facts.

But nothing about what I said or Paul says "Your not going to be saved" because you have bad understanding.

Paul goes on to say they are CUT OFF FOR UNBELIEF! You are choosing to be blind!

Now I'm giving you a FLAT OUT direct verse against prophecy, mystery, knowledge, faith being NOTHING. And LOVE being the prime important factor.

I don't have to change meanings, insert definitions, I can point right at that verse and say THATS IT.

But you did change the entire teaching. The more you engage with Scripture the more you display your lack of understanding.

First, Paul is speaking to Believers, not Unbelievers. They have belief in Jesus Christ.

Second, Here is what Paul said, "and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing." You twisted faith to mean faith in Jesus Christ.

Third, Paul concludes with this, "And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity." Three ingredients abide, not Love alone. Love is the greatest, but it must be directed as God said, you can't make up your own way to love God.

Fourth, same letter Paul concludes also, "If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." Tell us how the Jews love Jesus Christ?

Every attempt to undermine, work around and dodge LOVE is an act of evil by its essence. When something is devoid of love it is sin.

Problem is, the debate is not about belief void of love, but love void of faith in Jesus Christ. There is no debate that belief without love is a false faith. So you are off topic.

Once again your position is blown out of the water by the clear teaching of Scripture. Yet you continue on with blinders. It is a sad thing to witness.

 

[Adonia]

It seems Ms. Brazille has apologized publically for her "go to hell" comment. Since she is a Christian, I would think that she will also at some point be seeking forgiveness from the Lord for her less than honorable comment.