"Few be there that find it"

[steaver]

For me faith in Christ is essential, I have no place else to turn for forgiveness of my sins. I still maintain however that God can have mercy on anyone He so desires to extend it too - anyone!

Amen! No one here ever said God could not extend mercy to anyone. If fact, God has extended mercy to everyone, those who believe in Jesus Christ will be saved, those who reject the offer will be damned.

As for utilyan, he is also right

Either faith is essential or it is not. The debate is over faith.

And you should not misinterpret what utilyan is trying to say, our brother does indeed have faith in Christ.

Yes, he has faith but promotes a false hope to others saying they do not need any faith.

The final authority is the Church and it's interpretation of the Scriptures. Everything combined - the authority of the Church, the Sacred Traditions handed down throughout the centuries, and of course the Sacred Scriptures. Deviate from those three and you are asking for trouble. Scripture does not interpret scripture, the Church interprets the Scriptures, and does that correctly I might add. "He who hears you, hears me....." said the Lord. (Luke 10-16)

Great! Then hear me! I am part of the Church!

 

[steaver]

You want to pass on your fake rules as God's.

Can you answer two questions about this verse for us?

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." (2Pt2:21)

What way of righteousness is Peter speaking of?

What holy commandment delivered unto them is Peter speaking of?

Feel free to use the RCC's answers if you like. Just give their references. Or use other Scripture to support your answers.

 

[steaver]

Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and your neighbor as yourself Jesus said - those are the two greatest commands. (Matthew 22:36-40).

I believe these two great commandments favor my position....

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha."

 

[Adonia]

Great! Then hear me! I am part of the Church!

Yes, you are a part of the Body of Christ and I have no problem with respectfully listening to your viewpoint. However, as nice a person as you are, you have not been placed by God in any ecclesiastical authority over me and I will take that fact into account as we converse about religious matters. God bless!

 

[steaver]

Yes, you are a part of the Body of Christ and I have no problem with respectfully listening to your viewpoint. However, as nice a person as you are, you have not been placed by God in any ecclesiastical authority over me and I will take that fact into account as we converse about religious matters. God bless!

Oh, then when you posted "He who hears you, hears me....." said the Lord. (Luke 10-16) you did not mean me personally. Who did Jesus mean?

 

[Adonia]

Oh, then when you posted "He who hears you, hears me....." said the Lord. (Luke 10-16) you did not mean me personally. Who did Jesus mean?

That's funny, you thinking I meant you personally.

 

[steaver]

That's funny, you thinking I meant you personally.

It is sarcasim seeing how funny it is you misused that verses as the "you" being the church. Obviously the "you" is the disciples Jesus chose to deliver His Word, with the exception of Judas whom Jesus dismissed.

But back to the topic at hand...maybe you can help Utilyan out a bit...

Can you answer two questions about this verse for us?

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." (2Pt2:21)

What way of righteousness is Peter speaking of?

What holy commandment delivered unto them is Peter speaking of?

Feel free to use the RCC's answers if you like. Just give their references. Or use other Scripture to support your answers.

 

[steaver]

The final authority is the Church and it's interpretation of the Scriptures. Everything combined - the authority of the Church, the Sacred Traditions handed down throughout the centuries, and of course the Sacred Scriptures. Deviate from those three and you are asking for trouble. Scripture does not interpret scripture, the Church interprets the Scriptures, and does that correctly I might add. "He who hears you, hears me....." said the Lord. (Luke 10-16)

I'm curious as to why the Holy Spirit/God is not part of your Final Authority belief system. I'm going to assume you will say the Church is lead by the Holy Spirit. I guess we then need to identify what you mean by the Church, it cannot mean every Christian I assume, not even every Catholic. By Church you must mean a very small group of individuals and not actually the whole Church?

 

[Adonia]

I'm curious as to why the Holy Spirit/God is not part of your Final Authority belief system. I'm going to assume you will say the Church is lead by the Holy Spirit. I guess we then need to identify what you mean by the Church, it cannot mean every Christian I assume, not even every Catholic. By Church you must mean a very small group of individuals and not actually the whole Church?

Oh my, how did I forget to mention the Holy Spirit, sent to be with us and help us? My mistake, as the Holy Spirit is indeed integral to the Church, offering His unequaled guidance and help.

And what do I mean by the "Church"? Of course I mean the One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church that exists here on earth that was started by Jesus Christ, given to His Apostles (with authority), passed on by them to their successors who were the Bishops of the newly emerging Christian Church. We know those men as the Early Church Fathers, the leaders who called the various councils and synods to decide the basic doctrines of Christianity that all Christians of today continue to believe.

It's that church of which I speak, not the one's started by men who left it because of their claim that they now had "the truth". Come on brother, you know these things as we have been through them all before.

 

[utilyan]

Can you answer two questions about this verse for us?

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." (2Pt2:21)

What way of righteousness is Peter speaking of?

What holy commandment delivered unto them is Peter speaking of?

Feel free to use the RCC's answers if you like. Just give their references. Or use other Scripture to support your answers.

When the Church held council there was plenty of debate.
Acts 10

1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.

Just because they were JUDAISERS. They didn't say well we are the real church and these guys are fake. They got together in a council and settled it.

Protestants and Reformers LEFT. The council is there and ready. Instead you are giving a cop out that the hearer's of our lord never gave.

This why even now you are continuously splintering for every single piece of doctrine where you are the minority you leave and start another denomination.



#2

You want to insinuate that the commandments JESUS CHRIST gave were not commandments until they were written down.

John 13

34“A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. 35“By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.”

Amen its absolutely true, its how I know weather you are a disciple of Jesus or not.

Just because it happen to get written down LATER by those who HEARD IT doesn't mean it was not a commandment untill it was written.

And just for the sake of this FAILED argument.

Lets just suppose Jesus WROTE down these commandments with scripture instantly existing at the moment, which obviously did not happen.

IT would still fall short a LONG LONG WAYS from stating that scripture is the FINAL and ONLY authority.


How about giving us that bible verse you swear exist, that scripture is the ONLY and FINAL authority in Christianity.

Maybe someone can help Steaver out a bit, By supplying scripture he claims exists.

NO DECEPTION. don't try to hide with things we already agree on. I know scripture is TRUE, I know Scripture is important.

 

[steaver]

We know those men as the Early Church Fathers, the leaders who called the various councils and synods to decide the basic doctrines of Christianity that all Christians of today continue to believe.

What method did they use to decide these basics?

It's that church of which I speak, not the one's started by men who left it because of their claim that they now had "the truth".

But you said ALL Christians of today continue to believe the basic doctrines of Christianity??? Aren't Baptist and other non-Catholic Christians part of the universal Church Jesus Christ began?

 

[steaver]

You want to insinuate that the commandments JESUS CHRIST gave were not commandments until they were written down....And just for the sake of this FAILED argument....

I have no idea what you are talking about. You are arguing against something never insinuated.

Now here is what I actually asked you.....

Can you answer two questions about this verse for us?

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." (2Pt2:21)

What way of righteousness is Peter speaking of?

What holy commandment delivered unto them is Peter speaking of?

Feel free to use the RCC's answers if you like. Just give their references. Or use other Scripture to support your answers.

 

[Adonia]

What method did they use to decide these basics?

I don't know as I wasn't there in the room when those things happened. But I imagine they prayed about what they were about to decide.

But you said ALL Christians of today continue to believe the basic doctrines of Christianity???

Pretty much. The Trinitarian concept and Jesus as both human and divine.

Aren't Baptist and other non-Catholic Christians part of the universal Church Jesus Christ began?

Yes and no. While they are Christians, they have given short shrift to the teachings of the One Universal (Catholic) Christian Church. They went off and started their own denominations with their own doctrines, rejecting much of the teachings of orthodox Christianity.

 

[steaver]

I don't know as I wasn't there in the room when those things happened. But I imagine they prayed about what they were about to decide.

That's interesting. You don't know.....But you follow them on your imagination.

Pretty much. The Trinitarian concept and Jesus as both human and divine.

How do you suppose millions of Christians came to understand these truths who have never read any of these counsel declarations, but only the Scriptures?

 

[Adonia]

How do you suppose millions of Christians came to understand these truths who have never read any of these counsel declarations, but only the Scriptures?

Because they became accepted by everyone in the Christian world as that was the standard Christian teaching passed down through the generations. People knew abut Christ from the beginning because of the oral tradition, not because they read the Scriptures. The truth is most people in the world were illiterate and not reading anything. It's like everyone knows what gravity is even though most people have never read the scientific literature on it. Does that help?

 

[HankD]

Because they became accepted by everyone in the Christian world as that was the standard Christian teaching passed down through the generations. People knew abut Christ from the beginning because of the oral tradition, not because they read the Scriptures. The truth is most people in the world were illiterate and not reading anything. It's like everyone knows what gravity is even though most people have never read the scientific literature on it. Does that help?

Oral Tradition; the problem with Oral Tradition is that it has the same problem that the game of telephone has.

The tradition changes over the passage of time and peoples.

HankD

 

[steaver]

Because they became accepted by everyone in the Christian world as that was the standard Christian teaching passed down through the generations. People knew abut Christ from the beginning because of the oral tradition, not because they read the Scriptures. The truth is most people in the world were illiterate and not reading anything. It's like everyone knows what gravity is even though most people have never read the scientific literature on it. Does that help?

How do I fit in then? When I became interested in the Bible I challenged every doctrine presented to me. In fact, this is what led me to study the Bible, I was challenged about my own beliefs. I did not believe the Trinity, the Son of God or the Gospel because anyone or any religion told me to. I came to believe it because of what I read in the Scriptures. I am sure millions of Christians would testify the same as me.

 

[utilyan]

I have no idea what you are talking about. You are arguing against something never insinuated.

Now here is what I actually asked you.....

Deflections and dodges.

How about giving us that bible verse you swear exist, that scripture is the ONLY and FINAL authority in Christianity.

Maybe someone can help Steaver out a bit, By supplying scripture he claims exists.

NO DECEPTION. don't try to hide with things we already agree on. I know scripture is TRUE, I know Scripture is important.

Then we can put a stop to "PEDDLING LIES".


You have the easiest job in the world, to show us a bible verse you swear exists.

 

[Adonia]

How do I fit in then? When I became interested in the Bible I challenged every doctrine presented to me. In fact, this is what led me to study the Bible, I was challenged about my own beliefs. I did not believe the Trinity, the Son of God or the Gospel because anyone or any religion told me to. I came to believe it because of what I read in the Scriptures. I am sure millions of Christians would testify the same as me.

So you had no Christian faith before you started reading the Bible?

 

[steaver]

How about giving us that bible verse you swear exist, that scripture is the ONLY and FINAL authority in Christianity.

And you keep accusing me of deflections and dodges?

Do you want to start a thread on Final Authority? Go for it! You guys point to all the denominations and divisions caused by rejecting the RCC. What a joke! Just look at Catholics, they are so all over the place with practicing and defending sound doctrine, they don;t have any, it's a crap shoot! You yourself believes a person can reject Jesus Christ as Lord and Christ and still be saved by just loving a stranger and helping them out, even though they don't love the Lord Jesus Christ. Talk about ignoring context and cutting out a whole lota bible!

I even invited you guys to use your RCC declarations to answer these questions, but you both avoid it. Now why is that?

Here it is again...

Can you answer two questions about this verse for us?

"For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." (2Pt2:21)

What way of righteousness is Peter speaking of?

What holy commandment delivered unto them is Peter speaking of?

Feel free to use the RCC's answers if you like. Just give their references. Or use other Scripture to support your answers.