adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Let's start with Jesus before we move to Peter and Paul.
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Fighting Fundamentalism
- Thread starter adisciplinedlearner
- Start date
We have already done that with John 5:24. Let's move on.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
There is much more to Jesus' teachings about salvation than John 5:24. You know this yourself.
It is enough to say that Jesus believed in justification by faith. We can move on.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
I do not think this is enough. What else did Jesus teach about justification/salvation? This is just as important.
Why not start in the Book of Genesis then, and go through all the books of the Bible. One doesn't have to go through all 27 books of the NT to know what justification teaches. The doctrine of justification is found primarily in Paul's epistles. Paul does use some OT examples like Abraham and David. We also find the doctrine in the book of Acts to some degree. The fact is the doctrine is more fully explained to us after Christ died on the cross not before.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Let's start with the Sermon on the Mount, the greatest sermon ever.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Ok, Deal with it below:
Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:19 is placed side by side with Matthew 5:20 other than just a numerical order. In Matthew 5:19 those already IN the kingdom can disobey the least of commandments and teach others to disobey them and yet reamain in the kingdom of heaven as "least" in contrast to the "greatest" which means there are all levels in between "least" and "greatest" without anyone's salvation being forfeited.
However, in Matthew 5:20 one cannot even "enter" the kingdom of heaven unless their righteousness EXCEEDS the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees. Note this is required to "ENTER" in at the very START rather than like those in verse 19 already in.
What salvation by works advocates are blind to, is that the righeousness required to ENTER the kingdom of heaven that must EXCEED that of religious men, is the righteousness that EXCEEDS their interpretation of the righteousness of the law (vv. 21-47) so that it EQUALS the righteous of God (v. 48).
"Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time....but I say..... Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time...but I say....It hath been said......ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time..but I say......ye have heard that it hath been said by them of old time,.....Ye have heard that it hath been said....Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect. - Mt. 5:21,27, 29,31,33,38,43,48
The only place to get that kind of righteousness to ENTER the kingdom of God is by faith in Christ as the foundation "rock" as this is the will of the Father (Jn. 6:40) -
"And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.""
and this is the will of the Father at the last day being reaffirmed in Matthew 7:21-23 where some came before God attempting to be justified upon the "SAND" foundation of the MIXTURE of "Lord, Lord" PLUS "have we not
done many wonderful works."
However, those already in the kingdom because they entered in upon faith in THE FULFILLMENT OF GOD'S LAW BY CHRIST - Matthew 5:17-18 -
17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
the only thing that all their good works determine is REWARD in heaven "least" or "greatest" or somewhere in between." It is the rock that gets you into heaven whereas what you build upon that rock determines only rewards (I Cor. 3:11-15).
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The greatest sermon ever is the one in which someone is saved! :thumbs:
brucebaptist
New Member
Revelation 18:4
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
2 John 1:10
If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
“Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them” (Romans 16:17).
2 John 1:11
For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
“Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness” (2 Corinthians 6:14).
2 Corinthians 6:17
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
“Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us” (2 Thessalonians 3:6).
“If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness ... from such withdraw thyself. (1 Timothy 6:3-5).
“Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away” (2 Timothy 3:5).
“Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints” (Jude 3).
Matthew 25:32
And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
Luke 6:22
Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company,
you dont know what 'fundamental' means... maybe you should look it up. everything taught in the Bible about Christ is 'fundamental'. just because you dont like Biblical separation does not mean it is not Biblical. is the Bible a book about you or Christ?
you speak like a catholic and not a baptist.
'fundamental' is the 'core beliefs' of anything and FOLLOWING them... it is not 'extremism' as taught by the popes to bash the true followers of Christ. apparently there are things in the Word that you dont like, but you know they are Biblical... so whats your response... bash that teaching as being extreme, hatred, mean spirited, or even fundamental...
ex: praying to mary is not found in the Bible therefore it is not 'fundamental' to the teachings of Christ or Biblical Christianity. separating from error, fools, sinners, false religion and sin is Biblical. love it or hate it, we're commanded to do it.
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adisciplinedlearner
New Member
The righteousness needed to enter into the kingdom of God's glory is inward and outward practical righteousness, not invisible positional righteousness. This is what the Sermon on the Mount is all about. Matthew 5:20 is explained by everything that follows it in the Sermon on the Mount.
Dr. Walter
New Member
In other words, you cannot deal with the evidence here. This is your MO when confronted with evidence you cannot deal with. You make general statements and run. Verse 19 demonstrates that sin does not determine continuance or non-continuance IN the kingdom of heaven for those already IN it but sin only affects their relative positions (least to greatest) within the kingdom in God's sight. Hence, Jesus is not talking about the future kingdom but those in God's kingdom right now who are practicing and teaching. This is your first problem.
Your second problem is that verse 20 demands a standard of righteousness must be met as the PREREQUISITE for ENTRANCE into this same kingdom. He is not talking about a righteousness that is accumulated AFTER entering into the kingdom of God but the righteous requires BEFORE one can be accepted for entance into the kingdom of God. You admit that such a righteousness is both INWARD and OUTWARD holiness and yet no human being is equal OUTWARDLY much less exceeding the scribes and pharisees outward righteousness as a preprequisite for ENTRANCE into the kingdom of God. Indeed, your position is that only upon baptism is one brought into union with the righteousness of Christ but from that point is gradually imparted through good works.
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adisciplinedlearner
New Member
My general statement is supported by everything that follows Matthew 5:20 in the Sermon on the Mount. Invisible positional righteousness is not discussed in what follows Matthew 5:20.
Dr. Walter
New Member
No, your position is thoroughly debunked by Christ as utterly impossible for ENTRANCE into the kingdom of God. Your position is that MIXTURE of SAND that combines "Lord, Lord" PLUS "have we not done many wonderful works". Your position makes the house and the foundation one and the same for justification. Your position is inferior to the standard of God's righteousness in Matthew 5:48 and thus your works for salvation is not doing the will of the Father in heaven.
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
Matthew 5:48 is not the standard of God's righteousness, but the standard of God's loive.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Oh really! So in verse 19 those already in the kingdom of God can be practice and teach others to sin and it affects nothing more than their position before God as "least" to "greatest" but not their salvation???
Soooooo, you feel you have the liberty to change the Word of God to read,
"Be ye therefore LOVING even as your father in heaven is LOVING"
When the context begins about the standard of righteousness needed to enter the kingdom of heaven that exceeds the standard of righteousness derived by reducing the standard of God's righteousness by shallow interpretations of God's law??????
Yes, your response fits your overall MO, you change God's word to suite your heresies. You ignore what contradicts your heresies and you redefine God's word to support your heresies.
Dr. Walter
New Member
The context denies your sloppy agape interpretation. Jesus is concerned about ENTRANCE into the kingdom not about those ALREADY IN the kingdom serving him by love. He is concerned about the Phariseeical method of self-justification based upon reducing the standard of God's righteousness by their exposition of the law producing a LOWER level or standard of righteousness. He takes a number of MISINTERPRETED laws and interprets them correctly in order to define the standard of God's righteousness to be reflective of God's own righteousness - "be ye therefore PERFECT even as your Father in heaven is PERFECT."
Just like those who teach in living above sin, your theory demands that the STANDARD of God's righteousness be REDUCED to a level you can obey it in order that you can be justified before God just as the living above sin teachers have to REDUCE it to a level they can LIVE ABOVE SIN.
Dr. Walter
New Member
Doing the will of God in the Sermon on the Mount has first to do with defining the Regenerate children of God (Mt. 5:3-12)as those whose lives manifest righteousness because they believe that Christ fulfilled the righteousness of the law (Mt. 5:16-20) and thus is the ROCK upon which they have built their lives upon which is the ONLY difference between the house built upon the sands (mixture of faith plus works for justification) and ONLY reason their house stands up under God's judgement and the mixture of faith plus works profession does not stand up.
Dr. Walter
New Member
adisciplinedlearner
New Member
The Sermon on the Mount shows us what true Christians are like. They hear, believe, and obey Christ's words.