Filling in the gaps in prophecy

[Tony Solomon]

Tim, what can I say, you've read my mind again.

And all this despite the fact I never went to no college.

If the reference to 1000 years in Revelation is literal, then why are not the references to strange beasts, red dragons and pregnant women?

As for the restored Roman Empire, I chuckle to my self everytime we let someone else in, just as much as I did when the communist regimes fell - just after someone called Barry Smith published a book warning Britain that a communist takeover was imminent due to our sins!!

regards
Tony

 

[HankD]

I believe that Matthew 13 is the key to the "mysteries" of the Kingdom which had been hidden from the foundation of the world.

Even as He preached the ambiguity of the mysteries was built-in as Christ confirms...

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given...

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

He even defines the parable of the wheat and the tares (weeds):

38 The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
39 The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.
40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.
41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

He further elaborates in Matthew 24...

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?...

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

"nor ever shall be"... the fact is that greater than the sack of Jerusalem by Titus has already happened (during WWI and WWII for example).

These global events are difficult to "spiritualize" and are not given in parabolic language...

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

"this generation" - the "fig tree" generation.

Herein is the rub of understanding, what is the parallel of the fig tree of which Jesus refers?

HankD

[ February 21, 2003, 11:40 AM: Message edited by: HankD ]

 

[Tony Solomon]

Hank, I think there are two questions here:

Originally posted by HankD:
I believe that Matthew 13 is the key to the "mysteries" of the Kingdom which had been hidden from the foundation of the world.

Even as He preached the ambiguity of the mysteries was built-in as Christ confirms...

10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given...

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

He further elaborates in Matthew 24...

3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?...

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

"nor ever shall be"... the fact is that greater than the sack of Jerusalem by Titus has already happened (during WWI and WWII for example).

The tribulation that is great referred to here is the fall of Jerusalem. I am praeterist enough to admit that. The 'greater than' does not necessarily refer to numbers or extensiveness, but can also mean the quality of it: what greater than the total destruction of the people of God and their presence in the land, never to be revived, as it was after the exile. It was also a bad time, with hundreds being crucified daily, as Josephus reports; but the emphasis is on the salvation-historical arena. God wiped the dish.

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

"this generation" - the "fig tree" generation.

Herein is the rub, what is the parallel of the fig tree?

For myself, this refers to the end of the age. it follows on from the Fall of Jerusalem, beasue that was the beginning of sorrows, the birth pangs. Though fig tree was often symbolic of Israel (did I say symbolic? hush my mouth!) yet Luke in his parallel removes it from that by adding "trees" with it. It is a simple lesson from nature. For those with eyes to see, etc. Ye discern the weather and all that. The unsuspecting will be as the generation in Noah's time, but the wise will watch and wait.

That generation, the one living in Christ's time, saw the beginning of these things, as Christ predicted: he was talking about the temple then standing, having just prophesied its demise.
But he then goes on to speak of the whole of the tribulational era - this age; in this world ye shall have tribulation - until its ending.

The whole passage is designed to assure us that despite appearances, Christ is most certainly in control. The battle may seem against su, but the war is one, his word will not return unto him void.

regards

 

[John Wells]

Personally, I think the key to the amil delemma is Revelation Chapter 20! In my NIV, the first part of the chapter is subtitled "The Thousand Years."

20:1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
20:2 He laid hold of the dragon, that serpent of old, who is the Devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
20:3 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. (NKJV)

If, as the amils propose, we are living in the "1000 years," the "millennium," then:

1) Satan is bound, shut up, sealed up!
2) Satan is not and has not been deceiving the nations since the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70! Oh really?
3) In verse 4 there are to be martyred saints who "come to life" and "reign with Christ a thouand years." Do we really have people among us who have been living . . . almost two thousand years now? They should be on the "Jerry Springer Show!"

Please reconcile these verses from an amil's perspective!

In Christ,
John

 

[HankD]

Thank you for your response Tony,

Yes we call all take comfort in the fact that Jesus is the Lord of all.
Nothing will take Him by surprise or confound or defeat Him.

I appreciate and respect your position.
I am not dogmatic except to say that the return of the Lord will be a bodily return.
I am not exactly a dispensationalist or a "rapturist" as such.
My thumbnail doctrinal preference is that we (those here and alive in the flesh at the time just before His return) will be hidden from the wrath of God, the Day of the Lord. He will first send His angels to "gather the elect" and "bind" the wicked, then come Himself with the saints who preceded us and re-establish the Nation of Israel (circumsized Israel).
Then The 1000 years on earth.
Then The renovation, the new heavens and the new earth.

"So shall we ever be with the Lord".
We can all rejoice around this Scripture, now or a million years from now.

HankD

 

[Tim]

Originally posted by John Wells:
Personally, I think the key to the amil delemma is Revelation Chapter 20! In my NIV, the first part of the chapter is subtitled "The Thousand Years."


John, I did a little research on my computer Bible program. The word "thousand" is used in a figurative sense in the following verses to simply mean a large number (the same way we amil's interpret it in Rev. 20):

Job 9:3, Job 33.23, Ps. 50:10, Ps. 84:10, Ps. 90:4, Ps. 91:7, Ps. 105:8, Ec. 6:6, Ec. 7:28, Song 4:4, Is. 30:17, Is. 60:22, Amos 5:3, 1 Cor. 4:15, 1 Cor. 14:19, and 2 Pet. 3:8

I think that should be enough to consider it a Biblical precedent.

Quote by John:
If, as the amils propose, we are living in the "1000 years," the "millennium," then:

1) Satan is bound, shut up, sealed up!
2) Satan is not and has not been deceiving the nations since the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70! Oh really?

John, in my post above, I recount the differences in the world since Christ's session began. One of the primary changes is that there are believers in nearly every nation in the world. Before that, when Satan deceived the nations without restraint, only one tiny nation had true believers, and not many even there. Could we then say that there's been a major change in the deception of the nations?

As far as the binding of Satan is concerned. I believe that he may have been an angel at one point. If so, then he would fit into the category of fallen angels mentioned by Jude (verse 6) whom God "HAS (note the present tense) reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Additionally, Rev. 20 mentions that Satan will be loosed (if he hasn't been already) to deceive the nations again.

John's quote:
3) In verse 4 there are to be martyred saints who "come to life" and "reign with Christ a thouand years." Do we really have people among us who have been living . . . almost two thousand years now? They should be on the "Jerry Springer Show!"

Please reconcile these verses from an amil's perspective!

In Christ,
John

--Actually, this is an easy one. Where is Christ living and reigning now? In heaven--and there the martyrs are reigning with Him. They are the firstfruits of the church.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[John Wells]

Tim,

Very confusing reply for other readers. You included some of your rebuttals within my quote making your words look like mine. I wouldn't mind if you edited it so that I get credit for what I say and you get credit for what you say!

The verses you quoted regarding thousand do not refer to "thousand years" with the exception of Psalm 90:4, "A day is like a thousand years." Even here a thousand years is meant as a thousand years. John used "thousand years" in Revelation 20, verses 2,3,4,5,6,7. It is pure conjecture to suggest that he meant something other than what he said!

As to Satan being loosed or bound today, I think most would agree that he is loose and "prowling the earth seeking whom he may devour." There hasn't been any monumental change in the degree of evil influence/force in the world since the fall of Jerusalem. You have a monumental task of proving Satan is or ever was bound and sealed up. Sealed up means no influence on the outside.

Martyrs with "living bodies" in heaven now? If you study the scriptures, you will find that "glorified bodies" are not handed out until after the millennial reign, so that statement doesn't wash either. Also, these would be martyrs of the Tribulation. Did historians miss something or do we have evidence of the catastrophic events that occur during the tribulation having taken place? As I do a little mental tallying of the casualties during the seals, trumpets, and bowls, about 2/3 of the world population perish. Major atmospheric changes occur. When did these happen?

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Tim:
Actually, this is an easy one. Where is Christ living and reigning now?

Actually, once again the text is your biggest problems. The gospels are clear that when Christ comes to reign it will be on teh clouds with power. That last appearance of Christ on the clouds was Acts 1:11 where it was said that he will come just like you saw him go. The coming there seems clearly a reference to the Matt 24, 26, etc passages that talk of his coming on the clouds in power and glory. That simply hasn't yet happened. Additionally, the text says that Christ is now sitting on his Father's throne, and Christ's throne is contrasted with that (Rev 3:21). Those who are faithful in teh church will (future) sit down with him on his throne like he sat down on his Father's. In addition, the OT texts talk of his reign in a completely different fashion that anything remotely in existence now. If you compare the OT texts about the reign of Messiah with the present situation, the two have very little, if anything, in common. The text indicates that Christ is not now reigning in power.

In heaven--and there the martyrs are reigning with Him. They are the firstfruits of the church.

Aside from the evidence given above, the text once again says that Christ is the first fruits, and after that those who are his [/i]at his coming[/i]. So this reign of martyred resurrected saints will not happen until his coming.

Again, I assert that the text is your biggest obstacles, if words mean anything.

 

[Tim]

Larry's quote:"Very confusing reply for other readers. You included some of your rebuttals within my quote making your words look like mine. I wouldn't mind if you edited it so that I get credit for what I say and you get credit for what you say!"

Sorry Larry, I'm a better with theology than computers. I have a lot of trouble with the quote function, sometimes losing my post.

Larry's quote #2:"The verses you quoted regarding thousand do not refer to "thousand years" with the exception of Psalm 90:4, "A day is like a thousand years." Even here a thousand years is meant as a thousand years. John used "thousand years" in Revelation 20, verses 2,3,4,5,6,7. It is pure conjecture to suggest that he meant something other than what he said! "

We can go back and forth about this "thousand" thing. If its used in regard to years or hills or counselors, it can still be figurative.

Larry's #3:"As to Satan being loosed or bound today, I think most would agree that he is loose and "prowling the earth seeking whom he may devour." There hasn't been any monumental change in the degree of evil influence/force in the world since the fall of Jerusalem. You have a monumental task of proving Satan is or ever was bound and sealed up. Sealed up means no influence on the outside."

I don't see how you can say there's little difference between BC and AD, especially in regard to Satan's influence with the nations--the specific issue of Rev. 20. The spiritual kingdom has had a tremendous impact on the world since then. I maintain that Satan's influence has been more limited since the spread of the gospel throughout the world. Otherwise we're sure not being "salt".

Larry's #4:"Martyrs with "living bodies" in heaven now? If you study the scriptures, you will find that "glorified bodies" are not handed out until after the millennial reign, so that statement doesn't wash either. Also, these would be martyrs of the Tribulation. Did historians miss something or do we have evidence of the catastrophic events that occur during the tribulation having taken place? As I do a little mental tallying of the casualties during the seals, trumpets, and bowls, about 2/3 of the world population perish. Major atmospheric changes occur. When did these happen? "

What's the hangup with the martyrs here? John says he saw their "souls".

It seems that the first resurrection is the uniting of the soul with Christ in heaven. The second is the physical bodily resurrection, for all men.
Those who go through the first (physical) death can only escape the second (spiritual) death by having ben a part of the first resurrection.Hence they are blessed.

Finally, see Josephus for the tribulation questions. Other than that we're into the same old literal/figurative argument again.

In Christ,

Tim

 

[Tim]

Sorry John,

I got you and Larry mixed up!
(you do sound a lot alike)

Tim

 

[Tim]

Larry (and I do mean Larry, not John),

What do you think it means for Christ to be "set down with my Father in his throne"? Does that not designate sharing (a somewhat strange term when we're talking about the Trinity) power in a kingdom?

Tim