Finish the Sentence...

[Calvibaptist]

OK, now to my point. The Bible says that salvation is by grace. If grace is, according to definition, something that is unmerited in any way by anything in the one receiving it, then salvation is not given to someone because of their foreseen faith. It is given to someone because of God's grace.

It is given THROUGH the agency of faith. You must have faith to receive salvation. But it is not given to you because of your faith. Faith is the means that is used to receive the gift that is offered by grace.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
OK, now to my point. The Bible says that salvation is by grace. If grace is, according to definition, something that is unmerited in any way by anything in the one receiving it, then salvation is not given to someone because of their foreseen faith. It is given to someone because of God's grace.

It is given THROUGH the agency of faith. You must have faith to receive salvation. But it is not given to you because of your faith. Faith is the means that is used to receive the gift that is offered by grace.

Who's "Faith", God's faith or man's faith??

If it's God's faith, then why is man (abraham) credited with the faith??

If Grace come "THROUGH" Faith, then Faith must be present before the grace can pass "THROUGH" to get to you.

Your talking in Circles.

 

[Calvibaptist]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Who's "Faith", God's faith or man's faith??

If it's God's faith, then why is man (abraham) credited with the faith??

If Grace come "THROUGH" Faith, then Faith must be present before the grace can pass "THROUGH" to get to you.

Your talking in Circles. [/QB]

You know, with all your talk of "reading comprehension" you really don't read well. Grace does not come through faith. Salvation comes through faith. It is all based on grace. There is no circular reasoning here. Salvation is BY grace THROUGH faith. Faith must be present before SALVATION can get to you. But it is grace that brings both faith and salvation.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
[QB]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Ac 16:30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must...."I DO".....to be saved?

31 And they said,
1. Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ,

and


2. thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Predestination/Election by God, would make God a "respecter of persons", and instead of an unbias "JUDGE" following the dictates of the "law",

A Judge issuing Judgments according to his personal predilection, rather than the law, which not only is a "serious violation of law", but negates the giving of the law in the first place,

Why give the law if you are not going to judge by the law,

Predestination/Election by God's "Predilection" totally eliminate the need/Judgment of/by the law

That is the biggest bunch of baloney I have ever read. You have judged God completely by a set of man's standards, holding Him up to man's laws and ways, making Him accountable to man's definitions, and determining that if He is really like He says He is in the Bible then He is more guilty than we. Please stop making philosophical and sociological arguments against Calvinism and make Scriptural arguments.

It's only "baloney" when your "theory" doesn't "FIT".

"IF" a person can be "Guilty/Condemned" for "Unbelief", they can also be "Guilty/Justified" for "Belief".

A person is guilty/condemned because of Adam (Romans 5). They continue being condemned because they have not believed. They are justified by faith. We do not have an argument here. This point that you made is exactly what Calvinists believe.

Calvinist deny that salvation is offer to "ALL MEN", but scripture say the CHOICE" to believe is left up to men to make.

what must...."I DO".....to be saved?

Ro 5:8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Ro 3:23 For all have sinned,

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Ro 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: (predestined to hell) therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Jas 2:9 But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

We know these verses are there and love them just as much as you do. You are quoting verses that do not disprove our points. Come up with one that says that all men are able and willing to believe (not just one that commands all men to believe) and I will change my view. I've already shown you verses that show that all men are not able and willing to believe, so the ball is still in your court.

Predestinating some to hell, denying them the "opportunity" to be saved, "IS NOT" a respect of persons"???

commendeth his love, while we were yet sinners,

Who are you trying to kid???

When you get to the "Foundation" on which these doctrines are build, like sand, little pieces keep fall away until there's nothing left.

The "Foundation" is Scripture, not man's philosophical ideas about who God must be.

As I've said, Calvin has it "Backwards", God loved/wanted all men saved, but calvins "philosophical ideas" destroyed/limited that love and salvation.

And I don't think God is going to "Approve" of that error, it will take a lot of "rewards" down the drain with it.

 

[EdSutton]

Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Ephesians 2:8

So far as I have read on the first page no one has paid any attention to your reply to EdSutton. I’m inserting here your Ephesians 2:8 reference, ”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of Go/”

Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]

Not sure if you mean me, here, per se, for here I am a "nobody" talking about one who is definitely "SOMEBODY!", but my own post was meant to say that the actual words "I am saved by..." do not occur in Eph.2:5,8 or anywhere else in Scripture, to my knowledge. The words here, You or ye - (second person plural noun, not first person singular I) have been {or were} saved ['perfect' tense (completed- saved in 'the past, with the result that I'm still saved; passive voice- as opposed to active- God saved me, I didn't save myself; indicative- this is fact, not just possibility or how it does happen, but rather how it's ALREADY happened, as opposed to present tense- 'am' and 'it's a possibility that'] by [by is not found here, in either verse 5 or 8, but is derived from the instrumental case of (the) grace]. The usage, here, of the definite 'the' in the Greek language, tells us that this is something specific, and not just any old grace, or faith.

Both verses therefore, do not tell us that "I am saved by...", meaning 'here is how it's gonna' happen', but rather (amplified), the definitive "By this grace, (all of) you have (already) been saved, through this faith..." meaning 'THIS is what HAS happened'.

And the results are sure! I don't know if "I've finished the sentence", in a satisfactory manner, but "God has made the statement", and His statement is MORE than satisfactory.
In His grace,
Ed

[ March 12, 2006, 01:24 PM: Message edited by: EdSutton ]

 

[Me4Him]

Calvin's Bible

Ro 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.

It doesn't matter "IF":

1. you believe or not
2. obey the law or not
3. accept Jesus or not
4. seek salvation or not
5. pray or not
6. study the scriptures or not
7. repent or not

It's a "DONE DEAL" regardless of what we do/don't do.

We have a "license" to do anything we want because it won't make any difference in God's "predestined plans".

I'm just trying to figure out why God wrote all the "other stuff" in the scripture if the two verses in Ro 9 explains the whole plan,

any ideas??

 

[genesis12]

Quotation marks are used for quotation and when a word is not standard English usage. They are not used for emphasis. Italics are used for emphasis. Quite often quotation marks are not necessary. The words are pregnant with meaning without them.
_________

Example:

We have a license to do anything we want because it won't make any difference in God's predestined plans.

I'm just trying to figure out why God wrote all the other "stuff" in the scripture if the two verses in Ro 9 explains the whole plan....
_________

Using a standard format for grammar facilitates understanding.

(I don't see a graphic for professor or doctor ).

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Calvibaptist:
OK, now to my point. The Bible says that salvation is by grace. If grace is, according to definition, something that is unmerited in any way by anything in the one receiving it, then salvation is not given to someone because of their foreseen faith. It is given to someone because of God's grace.

It is given THROUGH the agency of faith. You must have faith to receive salvation. But it is not given to you because of your faith. Faith is the means that is used to receive the gift that is offered by grace.

There's another way to prove the same thing by scripture.

1. Hebrews 11:6 Without faith it is impossible to please God.

2. Romans 8:8 Those who are in the flesh [unsaved] cannot please God.

If those who are in the flesh were capable of faith on their own, then is would be possible for them to please God. But Romans 8:8 says it is not possible for those in the flesh to please God.

Now I can already hear the free willer rebuttal. "Romans 8:8 isn't referring to the unsaved, it's referring to Carnal people." Wrong. Look at the verse that immediately follows:

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

There you have it. Those who are in the flesh are those without the Spirit and do not belong to Christ. Those who have the Spirit and belong to Christ are not in the flesh. It's talking about the unsaved/saved.

 

[Hope of Glory]

There's one little problem: the Greek word is pisteuson, which is translated variably "believe, have faith," so faith is in that verse.

Well, it's interpreted as all sorts of things, but it can only be translated as "believe". Usually, people want to infer what they already believe, and interpreting it as something else works very well for that. Now, as a present, active, it is synonymous with "faith".

As for it being an aorist, that proves nothing. Most verbs in narrative sections are aorist. Aorist is the most popular verb form in Koine Greek. Moulton has said that the aorist presents "an event as a single whole, without regarding the time taken in its accomplishment." Simply put, aorist is not necessarily a past tense, nor a present tense, nor a future tense, but can be used in all three instances.

Aorist is punctiliar action; it is not durative. If you graph it, it is a dot. It can be a big dot, such as the building of the temple, or it can be a little dot, such as squeezing the trigger of a gun. The point is that you cannot undo the action (although you can undo the results of the action), and you cannot stop doing something in the aorist. If you are believing in the present tense, you can stop it.

In no place have I inferred that the aorist is past tense, although that's the way it's usually translated. Neither have I inferred that it has anything to do with a specific duration of time. If you believe on the Lord Jesus as your savior and quit moments later, guess what? You have believed in the aorist tense. If you believe on the Lord Jesus and you keep believing for the rest of your life, guess what? You have believed in the aorist.

The point is that there is nothing (no works) involved on your part for achieving or maintaining your spiritual salvation. It's all done by accepting the free gift that has been extended to you.

 

[ituttut]

Originally posted by EdSutton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ituttut:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Plain Old Bill:
Ephesians 2:8

So far as I have read on the first page no one has paid any attention to your reply to EdSutton. I’m inserting here your Ephesians 2:8 reference, ”For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of Go/”

Christian faith, ituttut </font>[/QUOTE]

Not sure if you mean me, here, per se, etc.
Ed </font>[/QUOTE]Hello Ed. No wonder the confusion, and thanks for pointing out. I made a “blunder” here, as reference should have been to Calvibaptist’s post for input to finish his sentence.

Christian faith, ituttut

 

[David Singleton]

In order to believe, one has to have faith. Belief and Faith are so much more than simply saying the words "I believe". Belief is knowledge and practice.

Many men have said the words "I believe" but belied the fact in the living of thier lives. If you say you believe and that you have faith in Jesus Christ to save you, and your faith is without works and love, than your faith is dead.

The Bible likewise is to be used, read, worn, written in and wrestled with, it should be a part of our very being as a born again child of Christ.

In todays Church we say "I have faith" and we say I am saved by faith and our faith and my belief will save us, in other groups such as the UCC, UMC, and others they believe more in salvation through works.

But if we read the second chapter of the book of James, we gat a clear picture of Salvation and faith and works. The evidence of our belief and faith is that we obey His commandments, and that we strive to emulate our Lord and Saviour. Our faith and our belief is evidenced in the living of our lives and through our works. Faith without works is dead, and likewise works with out faith is dead.

Many men have said they believed but belied the fact in the living of their lives. Thier are many who will stand before the throne on that day and say "But Lord, did we not heal the sick, raise the dead and do many wonderful things in your name, and He'll say depart from me, I never knew you..."

If you say you have faith and that you believe and your life is void of a personal relationship with Him, and your faith is not evidenced by your works. If your heart is hardened against people just because of thier clothes, financial position, the neighborhood they live in, the fact the person may have spent time in jail, or that she was once a prostitute or what ever... Than the Love of Christ is not in you, your heart is void, and your looking a little like one of the goats.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by David Singleton:
If you say you believe and that you have faith in Jesus Christ to save you, and your faith is without works and love, than your faith is dead.

Faith without works is dead, and likewise works with out faith is dead.

I wouldn't use those exact words but I follow you so far.

Originally posted by David Singleton:
Thier are many who will stand before the throne on that day and say "But Lord, did we not heal the sick, raise the dead and do many wonderful things in your name, and He'll say depart from me, I never knew you..."

You forgot the part about "you who practice iniquity", which - on the surface - seems to contradict what they said they were doing. But let's get to the point.

Depart from me - why? Because I never knew you.

I don't think the message here is that works without faith is dead. I think the message here is that Jesus never knew them. As opposed to whom? As opposed to these:

For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.