finite SINNING punished with INFINITE torture?

[DHK]

Rev 14
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger[/b]; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 ""And the [b]smoke[/b] of their torment goes up forever[/b] and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.''
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


Is 34
8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.[/b]
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.
10 [b]It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But [b]pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it[/b]; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

[/quote]
And here we have the "Christmas Tree" effect again. :tonofbricks:

Your eisigesis is astounding.
You fail to take into consideration both context and difference in authors.
John was a simple fisherman. He wrote in a very simple fashion. Consider the gospel of John, probably the easiest book in the Bible to read. It is the most published and most read book of the Bible. The most famous verse is contained therein--John 3:16. John writes very literally. He writes what he sees.

On the other hand Isaiah was one of the most educated men of his time--highly educated. Much of his book is written in a poetical fashion. The literary style of his book involves many figurative expressions, some of which are difficult to understand unless a deeper study of the Bible is done.

In the very same chapter of the Isaiah, only a couple of verses down, we read:

Isaiah 34:14 The wild beasts of the desert shall also meet with the wild beasts of the island, and the satyr shall cry to his fellow; the screech owl also shall rest there, and find for herself a place of rest.

But what does this verse mean, and are you willing to take everything that he says here literally? Here is what Jamieson, Faucett and Brown say about this verse in its literal sense:

[SIZE=+1][/SIZE]14. wild beasts of the desert . . . island--rather, "wild cats . . . jackals" (Isa 13:21).
screech owl--rather, "the night specter"; in Jewish superstition a female, elegantly dressed, that carried off children by night. The text does not assert the existence of such objects of superstition, but describes the place as one which superstition would people with such beings.

Here is the question one must answer:
Did the Jews at that time believe in superstitions--elegantly dressed females that carried children by night, or is this a figure of speech that has a more sensible meaning? It is obvious that Isaiah was speaking both poetically and figuratively. So you take a piece of poetry and try to use that to assert your theology of annihilation into it. You try to twist the meaning of forever and ever from a piece of poetry where the expression is used figuratively, just like in the Psalms where David describes God as One who will hide us under his wings. Will you also assert that God is a being that has wings??? Ridiculous!!
Bob, you have taken your logic and theology to the absurd.

 

[Andre]

On the other hand Isaiah was one of the most educated men of his time--highly educated. Much of his book is written in a poetical fashion. The literary style of his book involves many figurative expressions, some of which are difficult to understand unless a deeper study of the Bible is done.

I would think this same argument could be used about the book of Revelation and its author's use of references to "forever".

Please be specific: why should we assume a poetical reading of Isaiah 34 and not a poetical reading of the material in Revelation about the eternality of torment?

 

[DHK]

I would think this same argument could be used about the book of Revelation and its author's use of references to "forever".

Please be specific: why should we assume a poetical reading of Isaiah 34 and not a poetical reading of the material in Revelation about the eternality of torment?

Show me where John was writing poetry. He wasn't. He was writing: what he saw, recording what was said to him, and being as literal as possible. He was transported into heaven. In the limited vocabulary that he had he was describing to us heavenly scenes or scenes that would be future events.

I have had the experience of going to third world countries, where some of the people that live in nothing but mud huts and have never been to a city, and then try to describe to them many of the amenities or luxuries that we enjoy in this nation. It is inconceivable and incomprehensible to them. Something as basic to us as a shopping mall that has escalators (moving stairs) or elevators between floors is hard to comprehend. Define music played on cd player caused by laser beams of light hitting the surface of a disk--as if they would understand any of the aforementioned terms.
You live in Canada, I think. I live in northern Canada and we often see the aurora borealis (northern lights). Try explaining that to even someone who lives in the southern part of America who has never seen them before, let alone those living in a third world nation.

John had a limited vocabulary and described in the best way that he could what he saw. But that does not change the meaning of the word eternal, everlasting, forever. We all understand the meaning of those very simple and basic terms. John used them in his gospel of John. Check there to find out their meanings.

 

[abonmarche']

He was writing: what he saw, recording what was said to him, and being as literal as possible. He was transported into heaven. In the limited vocabulary that he had he was describing to us heavenly scenes or scenes that would be future events.

AMEN:: DHK
Also, John clarifies what conversation Jesus says in John 4:26 Very clearly--"Jesus said to her, I who speak to you am HE!! Amen.
Bye

 

[Andre]

In the book of Isaiah, reference is made to the smoke of Edom rising forever:

It will not be quenched night and day;
its smoke will rise forever

This is, of course, powerful evidence that one cannot always assume that forever literally means neverending. The reason: Edom was in fact destroyed and we all know that smoke is not today rising from Edom. So this demonstrates that "forever does not always mean forever" - the passage above from Isaiah cannot be taken literally.

In Revelation 14, note the close parallelism to the Isaiah text:

And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and his image

Since we know that the Isaiah reference to forever is "poetic" or non-literal, we have every reason to believe that the Revelation text is also poetical and that the eternality of the torment described in the Revelation text is not to be taken literally. It is difficult to imagine how someone who believes in the coherence and the harmony of the Scriptures would not notice the obvious parallel between the Revelation text and the Isaiah text. It seems to me that the most reasonable conclusion to draw is that similar "poetic" licence has been taken in Rev as was obviously taken in Isaiah - since we know for a fact that Edom was indeed destroyed and that smoke does not presently rising from Edom. As Bob has already pointed out:

AND We have the fact that John is in fact using the SAME terms about "Smoke rising up forever" as was ALREADY used to describe the destruction seen by Isaiah. It refers to to the memory of the event going on forever - as an eternal reminder.

The Isaiah reference to "forever" cannot be a literal eternity. The Revelation text obviously has copied this poetic use of "forever" - this conclusion is driven home forcefully by the fact that these texts are almost identical.

And I think Bob is right in the above post. Smoke going up in the air where it is visible to all can easily be understand as a metaphor for a "warning" and describing it as rising forever is easily understood as "a warning for a long period of time", not really forever. Either way, the Isaiah text establishes that "forever" is used in a non-literal way.

The fact that virtually the same phraseology is used in Revelation 14 leads naturally to the conclusion that literal eternal torment is not being described in the Revelation text.

Just as eternally rising smoke from a factually destroyed Edom is a sign of some sort to the peoples of the world, so is eternally rising smoke from the lake of fire a sign of the destruction of those who have been cast into it, not a sign of their eternal preservation in torment.

 

[Andre]

Show me where John was writing poetry.

I am really surprised that you would try and make this argument (unless you mean something else by "poetry" than I do). My point was that Revelation is so chock full of poetic and non-literal imagery, one cannot swing a dead cat without hitting highly non-literal terminology.

Just to name a few, we have:

lampstands
seven stars held in the hand
sword out of the mouth
keys to hades
face shines like the sun
references to soiled clothes as an obvious metaphor for sin
people made pillars in the temple of God
Lion of the tribe of Judah
Jesus as the lamb
the harlot
etc. etc.

The point is that the use of such non-literal imagery at least opens to the door to an interpretation that to the effect that the unredeemed are not really tormented for a never-ending duration. And the parallels between the Isaiah 34 usage and the Rev 14 usage make such a non-literal usage almost certain.

Add to this, the rather clear teaching of 2 Peter 2:6 understood in the light of Jude 7 - "eternal fire" reduces things to to ashes, it does not preserve them forever.

I would say that is the annihilationist who recognizes the Biblical harmony of such text combinations as the following:

Jude 7 and 2 Peter 2:6
Isaiah 34:9-10 and Rev 14:11

There is indeed harmony in the Scriptures and I have little doubt that the parallelisms between such texts were put there to qualify and clarify each other.

 

[BobRyan]

The Isaiah reference to "forever" cannot be a literal eternity. The Revelation text obviously has copied this poetic use of "forever" - this conclusion is driven home forcefully by the fact that these texts are almost identical.

And I think Bob is right in the above post. Smoke going up in the air where it is visible to all can easily be understand as a metaphor for a "warning" and describing it as rising forever is easily understood as "a warning for a long period of time", not really forever. Either way, the Isaiah text establishes that "forever" is used in a non-literal way.

The fact that virtually the same phraseology is used in Revelation 14 leads naturally to the conclusion that literal eternal torment is not being described in the Revelation text.

Indeed for in Isaiah animals move in to that area -

8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.[/b]
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.
10 [b]It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But [b]pelican and hedgehog will possess it[/b], And owl and raven will dwell in it[/b]; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.

 

[Rev. Lowery]

The questions in the OS (opening statement)
are meaningless. Even if you have an answer,
the answer also is meaningless. Also somebody
doesn't seem to understand what 'infinite' means,
intails, or portends.

In Eucleadian Geometry, each line segment
contains an infinite number of points.
A line segment is a finitely defined geometric
construct containing an infinte number of points.

Through each of the infinite points on a line,
an infinite number of arcs may be drawn.

The infinity of the number of points on a line
segment is called (using the first letter of the
Hebrew alphabet) Aleph-sub-one.
The infinity of the number of arcs which can be
drawn through all the infinite points on a line segment
is called Aleph-sub-two.

Yes, hardly anybody studies the mathematics
of transfinites.

God's infinity is way higher than man's infinity.

BobRyan: //IF God is INFINTE and the punishment demanded
of FINITE beings is ALSO INFINITE - Then it stands to reason
that God only pays the debt of ONE sinner.//

God payed for the infinite debt of infinite sinners.
There is a finite number of sinners, so God didn't even
have to strain Himself.

Ed, you sure do have a way with your posts brother, Thats what i was thinking!

 

[BobRyan]

DHK
And here we have the "Christmas Tree" effect again. :tonofbricks:

Where is the "substance"? Less smoke - more fire sir.

Your eisigesis is astounding.

You simply show a "quote" from Rev 14 and a "quote" of Isaiah - with no comments and all - and then call it "eisegesis"??

Less smoke - more fire.

You fail to take into consideration both context and difference in authors.

Wrong - as usual on this topic. I am simply pointing out an inconvenient fact - that John is quoting Isaiah and using a concept ALREADY USED to describe an event that is permanent - but does NOT equate smoke-rising up forever with "eternal fuel burning forever".

All Bible scholars admit that John quotes Isaiah extensively -

Here I will "Show it again"n -

Rev 14
10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger[/b]; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 ""And the [b]smoke[/b] of their torment goes up forever[/b] and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.''
12 Here is the perseverance of the saints who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.


Is 34
8 For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion.[/b]
9 Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch.
10 [b]It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.
11 But [b]pelican and hedgehog will possess it, And owl and raven will dwell in it[/b]; And He will stretch over it the line of desolation And the plumb line of emptiness.
[/qutoe]

In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

10 he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11 ""And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.''

Tell me Bob. since when have you seen smoke worshipping someone? Since when can one see smoke tortured?

The SMOKE rises up forever but the SMOKE is not worshipping nor is the SMOKE being tortured.

Obviously.

Those who try to twist the fact that the fire is eternal fire into the man-made doctrine of "immortal fuel" are bending the text far beyond what it will tolerate in Jude 7 and Matt 25.

In the case of Rev 14 - the SMOKE rises up forever is the SAME term used in Is 37 to show that the memorial of a devastating and permanent destruction.

It is not the smoke that is tortured, it is those who worship the beast and his image... it is those who receive the mark of his name who have no rest day nor night.

And -- while they are in torment they have no rest - once they are "destroyed by reducing them to ashes" as 2Peter 2 puts it - they are simple "destroyed BOTH body AND soul" as God's Word says in Matt 10:28.

They are not burned to ashes.

An exact contradiction of scripture sir.

6 and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them anexample to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter;
7 and if He rescued righteous Lot, oppressed by the sensual conduct of unprincipled men

Jude
7 just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal (everlasting) fire

Notice that just when the man-made tradition of "eternal torture" wants us to believe that 2Peter 2 DOES NOT refer to the destruction of the wicked by reducing them to ashes in the everlasting fire - the same that destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah - 2Peter 2 says IT IS talking about the destruction of the wicked at the end of time.
.

2Peter 2
9 then the Lord knows how to rescue the godly from temptation, and to keep the unrighteous under punishment for the day of judgment,
10 and especially those who indulge the flesh in its corrupt desires and despise authority. Daring, self-willed, they do not tremble when they revile angelic majesties,
11 whereas angels who are greater in might and power do not bring a reviling judgment against them before the Lord.
12 But these, like unreasoning animals, born as creatures of instinct to be captured and killed, reviling where they have no knowledge, will in the destruction of those creatures also be destroyed


In Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

I say hogwash! The Word of God declares the soul to be immortal.

By contrast - here is what the Bible DOES say about the soul dying


Matt 10:28 “both body AND soul” destroyed in fiery hell

Ezek 18:4 “The SOUL that sins shall die”

Ps 22:29 NASB” All the prosperous of the earth will eat and worship,
All those who go down to the dust will bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep his soul alive.

 

[BobRyan]

BR: Immortality does not mean "from eternity past"

HP: It depends on whether one is using the word immortal with the object as God or speaking of man. One can indeed speak of both God and man as eternal or immortal, just in different senses. Man indeed has been given an immortal soul.

God is all knowing
God is from everlasting to everlasting
God is present everywhere
God is creator
God is savior
God ALONE possess immortality

ALL of these are true of God but no ONE of them can be used to mean/replace the other.

 

[Andre]

I have asked the following question before but it has gone unanswered. I would ask that each person who believes that the unredeemed are tormented forever, please answer this question:

As per 2 Peter 2:6, how does the reduction of the physical towns of S&G to ashes serve as an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly, if the ungodly are in fact never reduced to ashes, but instead preserved in a perpetual state of burning?

Personally, I do not see how it possibly could be an example. The reason: the destruction of S&G fire is a proccess that terminates in ashes. If the unredeemed are not reduced to ashes, how can the S&G story truly be an example of a process of punishment that does not likewise come to an end. If event "A" is to be an example of a future event "B", one can hardly say this is so if A comes to an end and B goes on forever. This would simply make A and B too dissimilar.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Jude 1:7 (KJV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {strange: Gr. other}

Bob, if you go over to where Sodom and Gomorrah (the cities) once were, you will not see an everlasting fire burning.

Sodom and Gomorrah (the wicked people) are (present tense) set forth as an example (clear warning), in suffering (present tense) the vengeance of eternal fire.

Bob,
Whether you want to believe it or not does not make it any less a fact that those inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are indeed still feeling that eternal fire.

Nearly 2,000 years after the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were burned to ashes, Jude the brother of Jesus was informing the reader of his epistle that the inhabitants were still burning.

Several pictures of that area can be found at this site:
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm

Not one of those pictures show a fire still burning, yet Jude tells us it still is and that the inhabitants are suffering (present tense). I believe Jude and reject the false doctrine of annihilation.

 

[Andre]

Jude 1:7 (KJV) Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. {strange: Gr. other}

Bob, if you go over to where Sodom and Gomorrah (the cities) once were, you will not see an everlasting fire burning.

Sodom and Gomorrah (the wicked people) are (present tense) set forth as an example (clear warning), in suffering (present tense) the vengeance of eternal fire.

Bob,
Whether you want to believe it or not does not make it any less a fact that those inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are indeed still feeling that eternal fire.

Nearly 2,000 years after the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were burned to ashes, Jude the brother of Jesus was informing the reader of his epistle that the inhabitants were still burning.

Several pictures of that area can be found at this site:
http://www.arkdiscovery.com/sodom_&_gomorrah.htm

Not one of those pictures show a fire still burning, yet Jude tells us it still is and that the inhabitants are suffering (present tense). I believe Jude and reject the false doctrine of annihilation.

I think you are gaining mistaking the way the word "are" is used in this text.

What is happening in the present tense is the "setting forth" of S&G as an example, not the suffering of the people of S&G. I think the very last line of your post is based on incorrectly assuming that what is happening in the present is the suffering of people of S&G" rather whan the text clearly shows - it is the "setting forth as an example" that is happening in the present.

We all see that the word "suffering" is also rendered in the present tense. But consider the following:

"My friends Fred and Joe are set forth as examples of not taking care of their health, both suffering heart attacks in their 40s"

The specific use of the present tense does not establish that Fred and Joe are suffering heart attacks right now.

I doubt any student of how language is used would agree that Jude is saying that the people of S&G are burning today, at least not based on the present tense argument you provide.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

The verse clearly says 'are suffering', not 'did suffer'. The suffering is present tense.

 

[Andre]

The verse clearly says 'are suffering', not 'did suffer'. The suffering is present tense.

Not a valid argument. Besides the KJV text you supplied most definitely does not say "are suffering" - please reread it, the phrase "are suffering" is simply not there.

Maybe you did not have time to read my edit.

If I say "My friends Fred and Joe are set forth as examples of those who do not take care of themselves, both suffering heart attacks", this does not mean that I am saying they are suffering heart attacks in the present. The heart attacks could be happening in the present, but they also could have happened in the past. This "present tense" argument does not work.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Suffering is not past tense. It is present tense. The word 'are' whether put there for clarity or not does nothing to take away from the fact that the inhabitants are still suffering.

suffered - past tense
suffering - present tense.
Suffering is a present tense verb. Whenever the suffix 'ing' is added to a verb, it describes what is happening at present.

He is swimming; she is climbing; they are reading.

The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are suffering.


Jude used the present tense. The suffering that the inhabitants felt on that dreadful day is an ongoing process and will continue throughout eternity.

 

[Andre]

Suffering is not past tense. It is present tense. The word 'are' whether put there for clarity or not does nothing to take away from the fact that the inhabitants are still suffering.

suffered - past tense
suffering - present tense.
Suffering is a present tense verb. Whenever the suffix 'ing' is added to a verb, it describes what is happening at present.

He is swimming; she is climbing; they are reading.

The inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah are suffering.


Jude used the present tense. The suffering that the inhabitants felt on that dreadful day is an ongoing process and will continue throughout eternity.

This is a demonstrably incorrect argument. I will repeat what should be obvious to all and then let HBSMN have the last word.

The use of the present tense is simply and obviously not an argument that the people of S&G are presently suffering. Consider the use of the present tense of verbs in the following sentences and decide for yourselves whether the action represented by the verb is necessarily presently underway:

1. Joe is set forth as an example of someone in bad physical condition, suffering exhaustion during a walk up only three flights of stairs.

2. Jane is set forth as an example of an adventurous person, moving from New York to Shangai;

3. The people of New York are set forth as an example of perserverence, refusing to let crime intimidate them.

All these actions could be happening in the present or they could have come to completion in the past. The resolution of the ambiguity lies in the application of further knowledge - the present tense argument accomplishes nothing at all in respect to establishing that these actions are currently underway.

So let's not waste each other's time on arguments that are clearly unworkable.

 

[His Blood Spoke My Name]

Matthew Henry on Jude 7:

3. The apostle here calls to our remembrance the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, v. 7. Even as, etc. It is in allusion to the destruction of Pentapolis, or the five cities, that the miseries of the damned are set forth by a lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; they were guilty of abominable wickedness, not to be named or thought of but with the utmost abhorrence and detestation; their ruin is a particular warning to all people to take heed of, and fly from, fleshly lusts that war against the soul, 1 Pt. 2:11. "These lusts consumed the Sodomites with fire from heaven, and they are now suffering the vengeance of eternal fire; therefore take heed, imitate not their sins, lest the same plagues overtake you as did them. God is the same holy, just, pure Being now as then; and can the beastly pleasures of a moment make amends for your suffering the vengeance of eternal fire? Stand in awe, therefore, and sin not,'' Ps. 4:4.