First English Baptists

[Rebel1]

Since I was not able to reply in the Martin Luther and Free Will thread before it was closed, I wanted to start this thread to show some facts -- you know, those stubborn things that cannot be changed no matter how much revisionists desire to do so.

Now, I don' t know why anyone would want to slander any Baptists, especially those first ones who gave so much to defend our Baptist heritage and principles. Maybe because those Baptists were General or Arminian Baptists and not Particular Baptists.

Here are two articles on the founders of the Baptist faith in England:

John Smyth (Baptist minister) - Wikipedia

Thomas Helwys - Wikipedia

In that other thread, it was said the following about John Smyth, that he "taught that Christians could believe whatever they wanted to believe regardless of what the Bible taught." That is a patent falsehood.

Also, Anabaptists did not hold to the Latin version of original sin, but they were not Pelagians. Charging someone with Pelagianism is a centuries-old tactic to try to damage an opponent, someone who holds to something other than poisonous Augustinianism.

I know it obviously really gets to some people that the founders of the Baptist faith in England believed in free will, but I'm so glad that history cannot be changed, regardless of how hard some kick and contort.

 

[TCassidy]

Now, I don' t know why anyone would want to slander any Baptists,

Nobody in this thread slandered anyone.

Here are two articles on the founders of the Baptist faith in England:

Okay. Now I see the problem. You are using Wikipedia for your "history." That would be funny if it were not so sad.

That is a patent falsehood.

That is the truth of history. Sorry you don't like it, but you can't change the truth. Why do you think Thomas Helwys excommunicated Symth?

Also, Anabaptists did not hold to the Latin version of original sin, but they were not Pelagians.

Original sin is not a "Latin" teaching. It is a bible teaching. And those who deny we are completely fallen due to our bent toward sin, under the federal/seminal headship of Adam, are Pelagians, pure and simple. "In Adam all die." (1st Cor 15:22.)

I know it obviously really gets to some people that the founders of the Baptist faith in England believed in free will, but I'm so glad that history cannot be changed, regardless of how hard some kick and contort.

Yet you deny the fact accepted by every competent historian that Particular Baptists existed in England as far back as the reign of Edward VI (1547-1553) although not distinct from other dissenting groups such as the Congregationalists, which date back to Robert Browne in 1582.

 

[rlvaughn]

It seems to me, taking their own words, John Smyth could be considered Pelagian -- rejecting the doctrine of original sin -- while Thomas Helwys could be considered Arminian -- holding original sin, but denying points of Calvinism, such as irresistible call.
In his Short Confession of Faith in 20 Articles of 1609, John Smyth:

(5) That there is no original sin (lit;, no sin of origin or descent), but all sin is actual and voluntary, viz., a word, a deed, or a design against the law of God; and therefore, infants are without sin.
Short Confession of Faith in 20 Articles (1609) – by John Smyth | A Puritan's Mind

In A Short Confession of Faith of 1610, John Smyth:

4. This only God hath created man good, according to his image and likeness, to a good and happy estate, and in him all men to the same blessed end. The first man was fallen into sin and wrath and was again by God, through a sweet comfortable promise, restored and affirmed to everlasting life, with all those that were guilty through him so that none of his posterity (by reason of this institution) are guilty, sinful, or born in original sin.
http://www.baptistcenter.net/confessions/A_Short_Confession_of_Faith.pdf

In Propositions and Conclusions concerning True Christian Religion, followers of Smyth after his death:

18. That orginal sin is an idle term, and that there is no such thing as men intend by the word (Ezek. xviii. 20), because God threatened death only to Adam (Gen. ii.17) not to his posterity, and because God created the soul (Heb. xii.9)
19. That if original sin might have been passed from Adam to his posterity, Christ's death, which was effectual before Cain and Abel's birth, He being the lamb slain from the beginning of the world, stopped the issue and passage thereof (Rev. xiii. 8).
20. That infants are conceived and born in innocency without sin, and that so dying are undoubtedly saved, and that this is to be understood of all infants under Heaven (Gen. v. 2, i. 27 compared with I. Cor. xv. 49), for where there is no law there is no transgression, sin is not imputed while there is no law. (Rom. iv. 15 and v. 13), but the law was not given to infants, but to them that could understand (Rom. v. 13; Matt. xiii. 9; Neh. viii.3).
Propositions and Conclusions concerning True Christian Religion | The Reformed Reader

A Declaration of Faith of English People Remaining Amsterdam Holland of 1611, Thomas Helwys:

4. That notwithstanding this, men are by nature the Children of wrath, (Ephesians 2:3) born in iniquity and in sin conceived. (Psalm 51:5) Wise to all evil, but to good they have no knowledge. (Jeremiah 4:22). The natural man perceives not the things of the Spirit of God. (1 Corinthians 2:14). And therefore man is not restored unto his former estate, but that as man, in his estate of innocence, having in himself all disposition unto good, & no disposition unto evil, yet being tempted might yield, or might resist: even so now being fallen, and having all disposition unto evil, and no disposition or will unto any good, yet GOD giving grace, man may receive grace, or my reject grace, according to that saying; (Deuteronomy 30:19) I call Heaven and Earth to record. This day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: Therefore choose life that both thou and thy seed may live.
Helwys’ Declaration of Faith–The First Baptist Confession
English Declaration of Faith at Amsterdam | The Reformed Reader

Setting aside arguments over how to label these beliefs, the above sets forth the beliefs of Smyth & his followers, and Helwys & his followers, in their own words.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I thought it was pretty generally known that Smyth and Hellwys were the originators of the first General Baptists. However, these fell into Quakerism and Unitarianism during the early 18th Century and disappeared for a time.

The Particular ('Calvinistic,' 'Reformed') Baptists developed quite separately and survive to this day. We know that there were seven congregations in London by 1644. I occasionally preach at a church that dates its foundation to 1653.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

The answer is there were both General and Particular Baptists. Though, over the last 400 years, there has been some mixing of the two streams. Even among the Particulars, there was a dividing between the Gillites and the Fullerites.

 

[TCassidy]

Even among the Particulars, there was a dividing between the Gillites and the Fullerites.

Yes, and that divide still exists, the Hyper Calvinists who followed John Gill, and the more moderate Calvinists who followed Andrew Fuller.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

One problem I see over the last hundred or so years is the men like John R. Rice and B. Myron Cedarholm conflating the two by not making the distinction. So, when they "rail" against "Calvinism", they are railing against the Gillite flavor. The Fullerites get caught in the cross fire.

Yes, and that divide still exists, the Hyper Calvinists who followed John Gill, and the more moderate Calvinists who followed Andrew Fuller.

 

[TCassidy]

One problem I see over the last hundred or so years is the men like John R. Rice and B. Myron Cedarholm conflating the two by not making the distinction. So, when they "rail" against "Calvinism", they are railing against the Gillite flavor. The Fullerites get caught in the cross fire.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[rlvaughn]

One problem I see over the last hundred or so years is the men like John R. Rice and B. Myron Cedarholm conflating the two by not making the distinction. So, when they "rail" against "Calvinism", they are railing against the Gillite flavor. The Fullerites get caught in the cross fire.

I couldn't say re Cedarholm, but best I can remember Brother Rice disagreed with all flavors of Calvinism. He did print Spurgeon's sermons, but seems like he edited them. I have a book by his successor, Curtis Hutson, on Why I Disagree with All Five Points of Calvinism.

 

[rlvaughn]

I thought it was pretty generally known that Smyth and Hellwys were the originators of the first General Baptists. However, these fell into Quakerism and Unitarianism during the early 18th Century and disappeared for a time.

Martin, I understand that was the general consequences for the English General Baptists, but weren't their a few who survived this? Is this Old Baptist Union a part of this remnant?

Thanks.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Martin, I understand that was the general consequences for the English General Baptists, but weren't their a few who survived this? Is this Old Baptist Union a part of this remnant?

Thanks.

I'm unable to say that no General Baptist churches whatsoever survived into the mid-17th Century, but certainly most of them disappeared. Although there had been a General Baptist Statement of Faith issued in 1678, it seems not to have had any great following among the churches and many of them followed Mathew Caffyn, their leading spokesman at this time, into Unitarianism.
Dan Taylor was a Methodist who espoused Believers' baptism later on the 18th Century, and revived the General Baptist cause. He wrote of his predecessors, ”They degraded Jesus Christ and He degraded them.” It was his successors who founded the Baptist Union in the next century, which many Particular Baptists also came to join (unfortunately), and out of which Spurgeon led his church.

Today, the B.U. is largely apostate. There are a few good churches that remain, but some of these are now seeking to come out. Unfortunately, as with Brexit it is easier to decide to leave the B.U. than actually to leave it.

I heard just yesterday that most of the deacons have resigned from the largest B.U. church in South West England because of the B.U. stance on homosexuality. I await further developments.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Which county?

I heard just yesterday that most of the deacons have resigned from the largest B.U. church in South West England

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Which county?

I'd like to have a few more details before getting specific. I'll get back in a day or two.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I'm unable to say that no General Baptist churches whatsoever survived into the mid-17th Century,

Sorry! That should say, "mid-18th Century:" i.e. mid 1700s.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

Martin, you know I couldn't resist asking that question. It's like saying the same thing about the largest SBC church in the Southwestern US.

 

[rlvaughn]

Dan Taylor was a Methodist who espoused Believers' baptism later on the 18th Century, and revived the General Baptist cause. He wrote of his predecessors, ”They degraded Jesus Christ and He degraded them.” It was his successors who founded the Baptist Union in the next century, which many Particular Baptists also came to join (unfortunately), and out of which Spurgeon led his church.

I thought it was the opposite way around -- that the Particular Baptists organized the Baptist Union in 1813, and then later reorganized in order to allow for General Baptist membership.

Re the "Old Baptist Union," I have a document from them that is probably about 20 years old. I'll have to find it, but I'm pretty sure they are/were a small body of General Baptists -- maybe no more than 2 dozen churches.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

I thought it was the opposite way around -- that the Particular Baptists organized the Baptist Union in 1813, and then later reorganized in order to allow for General Baptist membership.

You are absolutely right. That will teach me to rely on my memory! Sorry!

Re the "Old Baptist Union," I have a document from them that is probably about 20 years old. I'll have to find it, but I'm pretty sure they are/were a small body of General Baptists -- maybe no more than 2 dozen churches.

I'll be interested to see what you come up with.

 

[rlvaughn]

Re the "Old Baptist Union," I have a document from them that is probably about 20 years old. I'll have to find it, but I'm pretty sure they are/were a small body of General Baptists -- maybe no more than 2 dozen churches.

I'll be interested to see what you come up with.

Martin, I decided to create a separate thread on this group, Old Baptist Union in the UK.

 

[Alan Gross]

Since I was not able to reply in the Martin Luther and Free Will thread before it was closed, I wanted to start this thread to show some facts -- you know, those stubborn things that cannot be changed no matter how much revisionists desire to do so.

Now, I don' t know why anyone would want to slander any Baptists, especially those first ones who gave so much to defend our Baptist heritage and principles. Maybe because those Baptists were General or Arminian Baptists and not Particular Baptists.

Here are two articles on the founders of the Baptist faith in England:

John Smyth (Baptist minister) - Wikipedia

Thomas Helwys - Wikipedia

In that other thread, it was said the following about John Smyth, that he "taught that Christians could believe whatever they wanted to believe regardless of what the Bible taught." That is a patent falsehood.

Also, Anabaptists did not hold to the Latin version of original sin, but they were not Pelagians. Charging someone with Pelagianism is a centuries-old tactic to try to damage an opponent, someone who holds to something other than poisonous Augustinianism.

I know it obviously really gets to some people that the founders of the Baptist faith in England believed in free will, but I'm so glad that history cannot be changed, regardless of how hard some kick and contort.

I just compiled some Baptist History from: Tracing Jesus' Churches in Baptist History's Invisible Spiritual War will record Visible Martyrs;
8. 5.1: Tracing Jesus' Churches in Baptist History's Invisible Spiritual War will record Visible Martyrs - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.

THE WELSH BAPTISTS; 8.5.28: The 1st Century- 21st Century: The LORD'S BAPTIST BELIEVING CHURCHES, know as THE WELSH BAPTISTS - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.

Baptist Churches in England
The 1st - The 21st Centuries; 8.5.29: 1st-21st Centuries: The LORD'S Welsh Baptists of Wales & other BAPTIST BELIEVING CHURCHES in England - 8. THE GODHEAD in HIS CHURCHES.

 

[rlvaughn]

Alan, welcome to the Baptist Board.