First priority....children or spouse?

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
Example: daughter wants to go to an overnight at a girlfriend's. Mother says no, tomorrow is church. Decision is father's. Daughter pleads.

Does father
1. Decide on his own authority what HE thinks is best regardless of his wife or daughter?
2. Agree with wife, taking a united stand for daughter?
3. Agree with daughter, causing conflict with wife?

Why are these the only three options? And why do you assume that mother and father have not previously discussed this? You make assumptions that stem from a bad marriage, again, as I point out to Abiyah, an unbiblical approach. Assuming that mom and dad are on the same page, this is an easy question. The girl doesn't go. Of course, I am assuming that the girlfriend doesn't attend church.

But again, I emphasize that we should not make our views based on what depraved man has done in sin. Let's base them upon God's ideal and expect people to live up to it. If I had a family in my church that was regularly absenting themselves from the services of the church, I would approach them with the biblical model of the early church involvement and challenge their thinking about what Scripture says. Let's call people to rise up to obedience rather than making excuses and changing the standards for their depravity.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Don:
To Pastor Larry et al, I mentioned Ephesians 5 and 6 previously. This is the order in which scripture gives us relationship priorities:
God
Spouse
Children
Job (whether it be pastor of a church or aluminum can picker-upper)
Self

I think perhaps you have read more into Ephesians 5 and 6 than Paul intended. In studying that passage, the only thing I see is that spouse comes before self. To get any more out of it is to stretch it beyond its limits. I contend, as I have said, that if we want a biblical model of priorities, we need to look at the early church and consider the examples of Acts and the commands to the early church. You will find a great emphasis on the church and a smaller emphasis on the family. I would contend that the many "one another" passages are greatly being ignored for the modern day Christian idol of the family. The church will last long after the family has gone and the strength of the church to a large degree depends on the strength of the families and those families commitments to the ministries of the church. I would simply urge you to reconsider Eph 5 and 6.

I am not arguing that church supercedes all other things. I am arguing that we have erected a dichotomy that is not found in Scripture. I would challenge someone to find a place where God addresses the relationship between the family and the church.

 

[Helen]

Larry, if they are 'on the same page', that means their relationship has come first. And no, I wasn't talking from a bad marriage experience. I'm talking from what ALL parents of teens have gone through that I know!

 

[Molly]

Of course,we all know that God established the marriage realtionship to be the closest and most important on Earth,from that comes our relationship with our children,which is also very important and a huge responsibility. My husband and I are comitted to eachother and are constantly working on our marriage,learning to be how we should be as husband and wife,but never putting our children in a different priority than where they belong,as well. They are God's gift to us to raise and discipline and teach to love God. I think the church plays an integral part of the family relationship,it is all tied together. It all works together.

Helen,about the teenager issue you brought up....the way I see it,is the husband and wife should be on the same page with those kinds of decisions,like Pastor Larry said,if the marriage was what it should be,there would be a like mindedness in all those issues that come up. I can't imagine my husband and I disagreeing on those kinds of things to begin with. (like whether on not a daughter could go to a friend's house with church being the next day). Our children already know the answer to that,too. There are many things that are an already given answer. The children can tell if the parents are together on all those things.

 

[donnA]

God #1
Then Spouse
And if so blessed, kids and grandkids
#4 is the church!

I have a tendency to think that most of the men would readily agree, but a lot of the women will have to pause and think on it for a minute

Have already thought about it, and even discussed it with my husband,I agree with Dr. Bob.

The marriage relationship is to mirror the relationship of Christ and His bride, the church. If we have our priorities out of wack then we are not being what God has created our marriage to be. This does not mean we do not love our children, or that we love them any less, just that we must have our priorities in the right order. My children will grow up(already have), and leave home(haven't yet) and my husband will live with me forever. My sons will join with their wives, and creat a new union which will mirrior Christs relationship with us, and we will continue to do so in our marriage.

 

[Pastor Larry]

Originally posted by Helen:
Larry, if they are 'on the same page', that means their relationship has come first. And no, I wasn't talking from a bad marriage experience. I'm talking from what ALL parents of teens have gone through that I know!

I have some teens in my church who have tried to pit the parents against each other and unfortunately, in some cases, they have been successful. Kids try that; hopefully the parents are on the same page as far as their approach to it. I don't see how this relates to whether the parent's relationship comes first or not though. This seems more an issue of kids and authority. Perhaps I am missing something ... I have before, you know.

 

[Helen]

Oh, I think all teens try, Larry! They are all trying to push the limits.

What I have seen runs a wee bit deeper, I think, and can't really be avoided. A girl has to push off from her mother and a guy from his dad. This is really imperative in the growing up process. But, while this is happening, it is normal for the girl to look to her father for approval and the guy to look to his mom. Whereas before they attempted to emulate the person of the same sex, when they are pushing off, attempting to be their own person (whoever that is!), what the 'opposite' parent thinks is really important (although often that is not admitted at the time).

This generally happens just as the mom is starting her change of life and the dad is hitting his forties and life is presenting some personal crises. Hurt feelings can abound on all parts and things can be said to and fro which really should not be said, and would not be in normal times.

I saw it happen with students' families a number of times where the mother would end up siding with a rebellious or just confused son while the father was trying to get the kid to shape up and accept responsibility, or discipline, or whatever. And the reverse: the dad would baby the daughter and find excuses for her while the mom, very aware of her daughter's manipulations, was trying to hold the line. These are very, very difficult years.

I am convinced from what I have seen and from raising my own that if the parents are not in the habit of putting their relationship first, small splits get bigger and bigger as each is doing what he or she thinks best in terms of the child.

What is best is the parents backing each other up. But that does not often happen if they are not used to doing that and making their own partnership and relationship second only the each one's relationship with God.

You don't have to agree here. But keep an eye out for it in your congregation. I'm sure you will see it happen.

[ October 13, 2002, 08:44 PM: Message edited by: Helen ]

 

[Rev. G]

Okay, I haven't read all the posts, just the question. Having said that, MY WIFE is my priority. She and I are "one flesh." I will live with her long after our kids are gone. If she isn't my priority, then my kids will not understand their roles properly, or how they should treat their spouses and children.

Rev. G

P. S. (I love my children very, very much.)

 

[latterrain77]

A husband cannot ignore his wife at the expense of the children (just as the church cannot ignore Christ at the expense of it’s service). Yet, a church seemingly WITH Christ, which is not “raising up” children, is a dead church (Rev. 3: 1, etc). Likewise, a husband may proclaim love for his wife above all else, yet without the focus on “raising up” Godly children (the primary function of the marital relation) the marriage is just as dead as that church proclaiming Christ which was “dead” all along.

Raising up “holy children” is the most crucial business of the church and of marriage. Without such focus, the church (and the marriage) is not only failing in its primary function, but would also be paving the way for future disaster in both church and marriage (Matt. 4: 19, Mark 1: 17, Matt. 28: 19, Mark 16: 15).

A husband must be cautious NOT to slip into quasi idolatry with his wife. Does Christ worship his church? No! He LOVES his church. Likewise husbands must LOVE their wives, yet avoid the pathetic show of “wife worship.” I’ve seen many a weak man slip into this trap and I’ve observed their wives loathing them for it. Think about this for a few minutes before reacting. Haven’t you also observed this? Isn't this the error that Adam made with Eve? (Gen. 3: 6, Gen. 3: 12).

Consider the beautiful country Italy. Many years ago, the typical Italian family had many children. Along the way, the church lost its structure and today the Italian family now has very few children per family. Couple this with fewer marriages there and the result is that Italy is in serious “family” decline. When focus is NOT on raising up Godly children in marriage, then decline soon follows. When focus in a church is NOT in raising up Godly children, then decline soon follows.

Helen, you make a meaningful point concerning the husband “supporting” his wife’s decisions (and vice-versa) whenever a “kid” issue arises (i.e. going to a teen party, dance, etc). However, in the example you gave, it might have been more prudent for the wife to first discuss the issue with her husband before rendering a judgment concerning the child. Two heads are often better than one – especially when it comes to “kid” things. Furthermore, such final authority is best left with a Bible based Dad.

Last thought - it is dangerous and highly un-Biblical for a Dad to overwhelm his children (Colossians 3: 21, Eph. 6: 4). A dad should be an authority figure, yet he must also be the child’s “friend.” The child must know that they can go to “dad” for help when some “big event” occurs in their life (often those big events can be as innocent as “striking out” with the bases loaded!). Dad must deal with this prudently, Biblically, and without shame. The children must never become frustrated (Col. 3: 21) by Dad’s behavior. All the while, Dad must never water down clear Biblical instruction. The wife is created to be a "help meet" to her husband (Gen. 2: 18) - just as the church is created to be a help-meet to Christ.

latterrain77

 

[Pastor Larry]

Helen,

I do agree with you on that point of teens splitting parents. Perhaps I miscommunicated. My point was that the parents should have talked it over first so that the mother's word is the father's word. Or perhaps the mother tells the daughter to go ask the father first. I don't think the parents should publically question each other on a matter of discipline or rules in most cases. I am well aware of what teens do, having worked and counseled with them for over 10 years. I know exactly what you are talking about.

However, I still don't see how the parents "putting their own relationship first" has anything to do with that. Having read all that I have read, I remain unconvinced that a true dichotomy exists here. It is not a matter of "priority" as much as it is a matter of living biblically. When we live biblically, I don't see where these responsibilities really conflict. As I have said, the best thing a father can do for the children is love the mother biblically, as Christ loved the church. The best thing a husband can do for his wife his love her biblically and love the children biblically. I simply do not see the conflict that everyone else sees. And the best thing a father can do for his family is have them actively involved in the body of Christ, which will be around long after all these little piddly things like earthly families and teen conflicts are gone.

 

[Karen]

Originally posted by Pastor Larry:
.....
Having read all that I have read, I remain unconvinced that a true dichotomy exists here. It is not a matter of "priority" as much as it is a matter of living biblically. When we live biblically, I don't see where these responsibilities really conflict....I simply do not see the conflict that everyone else sees.....

I tend to agree with you. And perhaps going in a direction you do not intend, I am not sure how this perceived conflict fleshes out in real life other than in preceding examples of wrongdoing.

Eg., MANY times my husband and I have jointly sacrificed for our children. There have been a number of times our budget for Christmas was limited, and we gave each other nothing and were both delighted with what we gave our children.

In an esoteric sense, my husband puts me before the children, but in a daily sense, he spends more time at work than with me, and spare money goes more for kids' schooling, education, teeth, and shoes than it does for a romantic dinner followed by a stroll on the beach.
I will spend far more time with the kids today than with my husband.
Should I tell them to fix their own peanut butter sandwiches tonight because I need to spend time with my second priority?

In our case, if we had no kids, we would not necessarily be closer. We would eat better and be better-dressed.
But we are GLAD for our children, and raising them together has brought us closer than we might be otherwise.

I am not sure, either, where the conflict is, or how it manifests itself PRACTICALLY on a daily basis.

Karen

[ October 14, 2002, 12:25 PM: Message edited by: Karen ]

 

[Abiyah]

Larry --

Please forgive me for writing down two bad
examples to prove my point. Sometimes, we
must use what we have, and the only truly
exempliary examples I have had of believers'
families are from those I have known over only
the last few years. We all must work with what
we have.

 

[Angie Miller]

God, Spouse, Children-PERIOD!
But I myself do fight against that with my maternal feelings.

Yet another area to gain strength from Christ!
God Bless, Angie