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First resurrection

Jedi Knight

Well-Known Member
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Ok gang what do you think...is this the spiritual "born again" or physical reference of the first resurrection? Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
 

asterisktom

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Ok gang what do you think...is this the spiritual "born again" or physical reference of the first resurrection? Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

I believe that other scripture shows this to be our being already resurrected with Christ, those of us who are Christians:

Ephesians 1:20
He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places

Ephesians 2:5-6
[God] made us alive together with Christ...and raised us up with Him

Colossians 2:12
ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead

Colossians 3:1
If ye, then, be risen with Christ , seek those things that are above
 

kyredneck

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Hello Jedi,

I believe those that have been born from above have also been raised with Christ, as Tom has pointed out.


....whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this?
 

Jedi Knight

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Thanks brethren,I thought of John 5 where Jesus said "an hour is coming and NOW is when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and live."
 

thomas15

Well-Known Member
I'm right in the middle of a self-styled study on covanent/dispensational comparisons. I tend to lean dispensational and as you may know the resurrection referred to in Rev 20:6 by dispensationalist is generally considered the resurrection of the tribulation saints. Covanent theologians consider this is a silly notion but to me there is some merit to it as a literal reading and taken in context.

I'm trying to wrap my brain around the covanent position. My take on that is since they teach that believers are spititually resurrected with Christ at the time of salvation and there is no literal millennium, then the Rev 20 resurrection is the physical and general resurrection of believers and non-believers for final judgement. I think then, if I'm correct here, then the spiritual resurrection of believers at salvation is an on-going process that started with the resurrection of Jesus and will continue until the end of the age. Each believer is resurrected one time, but as time marches on, new believers are added to the church and as each member is added, they are resurrected.

At this time I haven't sorted out all of the details nor have I examined verse 6 in detail so i cannot defend or argue against the covanent position. There are a few problems that come to mind though, for example the words "have a part..." is kind of a weak choice of words for an important event that profoundly effects every believer in every age. Another issue has to do with the temporary physical resurrection of saints that happened when Jesus died on the cross and the other resurrections in the NT, such as when Jesus and Paul brought people back to life. I haven't considered if those resurrections shed any light on the question at hand.

So, to the OP, you ask a good question, one that I'm struggling with right now.
 

asterisktom

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I'm right in the middle of a self-styled study on covanent/dispensational comparisons. I tend to lean dispensational and as you may know the resurrection referred to in Rev 20:6 by dispensationalist is generally considered the resurrection of the tribulation saints. Covanent theologians consider this is a silly notion but to me there is some merit to it as a literal reading and taken in context.

Just a short comment before work: I can't speak for everyone else here but I do not like or use the term "Covenant Theology" to describe my position. That position has IMO serious baggage of its own. "Doctrines of grace" seems more accurate.

Take care.
 

swaimj

<img src=/swaimj.gif>
I believe that other scripture shows this to be our being already resurrected with Christ, those of us who are Christians:
Tom, are you saying that the spiritual resurrection that Christians have already experienced is the only resurrection that will ever occur? Are you saying that there is no future physical resurrection?
 

asterisktom

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Tom, are you saying that the spiritual resurrection that Christians have already experienced is the only resurrection that will ever occur? Are you saying that there is no future physical resurrection?

I have to grade papers today and do report cards today. The following page contains the response that I am most comfortable with. I am referring not to the main writer but a responder named Sam.

Here is the page:
http://preterism.ning.com/forum/topics/the-nature-of-the-resurrection?commentId=1632544%3AComment%3A71894

The response is the one that starts like this:

Reply by sam on February 27, 2010 at 2:06am

I wrote this on another article:

In I Corinthians 15, it is maintained that the "it" that is raised is the same "it" that was sown. If you define the "it" as the physical body, then you get Augustine, which is the traditional view.
...

------end of quote-----------

When I get done with grading I would like to add my own thought as well.
 

Allan

Active Member
Tom, are you saying that the spiritual resurrection that Christians have already experienced is the only resurrection that will ever occur? Are you saying that there is no future physical resurrection?

I'm not Tom however, if one holds to a full or mostly full preterist position then they hold unwaiverly to no literal resurrection - like the saddusees did/do.

The literal resurrection is spiritualized and thus a believer, being alive, is even now resurrected with/in Christ.
From Theopedia:
Full Preterism
Full Preterism differs from Partial Preterism in that it sees all prophecy fulfilled with the destruction of Jerusalem, including the resurrection of the dead and Jesus' Second Coming or Parousia. Full Preterism is also known by other names, such as Consistent Preterism or Hyper-Preterism (a somewhat derogatory term). A related but more recent term is Pantelism, which some regard as an extension of Full Preterism rather than the same thing.

Full Preterism holds that Jesus' Second Coming is to be viewed not as a future-to-us bodily return, but rather a "return" manifested by the physical destruction of Jerusalem and her Temple in AD 70 by foreign armies in a manner similar to various Old Testament descriptions of God coming to destroy other nations in righteous judgment. Full Preterism also holds that the Resurrection of the dead did not entail the raising of the physical body, but rather the resurrection of the soul from the "place of the dead," known as Sheol (Hebrew) or Hades (Greek). As such, the righteous dead obtained a spiritual and substantial body for use in the heavenly realm, and the unrighteous dead were cast into the Lake of Fire. Some Full Preterists believe this judgment is ongoing and takes effect upon the death of each individual (Heb. 9:27). The New Heavens and the New Earth are also equated with the fulfillment of the Law in AD 70 and are to be viewed in the same manner by which a Christian is considered a "new creation" upon his or her conversion.

Although Full Preterism is viewed as heretical by many, this condemnation is not universal. Many of those who condemn Full Preterism do so not based solely upon the historic creeds of the church (which would exclude this view), but also from biblical passages that they interpret to condemn a past view of the Resurrection or the denial of a physical resurrection/transformation of the body, doctrines which many Christians (but not all) believe to be essential to the faith. Critics of full preterism point to the Apostle Paul's condemnation of the doctrine of Hymaneus and Philetus (2 Tim 2:17-18), which they regard as analogous to full preterism.

Adherents of Full Preterism, however, dispute this assertion by claiming that any biblical condemnation of a past resurrection was written during a time in which the Resurrection was yet future (i.e., pre-AD 70) as well as claiming different interpretations of other proffered biblical passages. Furthermore, Full Preterists reject the authority of the Creeds to condemn their view, stating that the Creeds were written by uninspired and fallible men and are simply in error on this point and need to be reformed. A growing movement, there has been a strong push by Full Preterists for acceptance as another valid Christian eschatological view; however, to date, no major conservative denomination or group has officially accepted this view as normative, though several have issued a condemnation.

Though such a view places much of scripture in contradiction, especially passages such as Mary with Jesus when He came to resurrect Lazarus:
Jhn 11:23 Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.
Jhn 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
Jhn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:
Jhn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Note first that Jesus didn't disagree with her nor did he correct her on her misunderstanding of what will be. He did however help her understand what He was about to do, even though she didn't yet grasp it all.
Jesus is speaking of two specific and distinct things. The first is physcial (the literal resurrection of believers - and unbelievers, as there will be a resurrection to life and one to damnation).

The second is speaking of a spiritual aspect in that those who believe will not ever die (spiritually) even though the body lies dead in the ground for a time.
 
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asterisktom

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
I'm not Tom however, if one holds to a full or mostly full preterist position then they hold unwaiverly to no literal resurrection - like the saddusees did/do.

The literal resurrection is spiritualized and thus a believer, being alive, is even now resurrected with/in Christ.
From Theopedia:


Though such a view places much of scripture in contradiction, especially passages such as Mary with Jesus when He came to resurrect Lazarus:

Note first that Jesus didn't disagree with her but explained a litt
Jesus is speaking of two specific and distinct things. The first is physcial (the literal resurrection of believers - and unbelievers, as there will be a resurrection to life and one to damnation).

The second is speaking of a spiritual aspect in that those who believe will not ever die (spiritually) even though the body lies dead in the ground for a time.

Overall I agreed with the Theopedia article, except for some of the inferences. Speaking of which, I noticed also the guilt-by-association dig (as if I was like the Sadducees, those who Jesus said "erred greatly" concerning the Word of God). Oh well, I guess I had it coming for all those times 10-15 years ago I would castigate preterists as heretical. I just didn't know, and wrote unadvisedly.
 

Allan

Active Member
Overall I agreed with the Theopedia article, except for some of the inferences. Speaking of which, I noticed also the guilt-by-association dig (as if I was like the Sadducees, those who Jesus said "erred greatly" concerning the Word of God). Oh well, I guess I had it coming for all those times 10-15 years ago I would castigate preterists as heretical. I just didn't know, and wrote unadvisedly.

It wasn't a dig, I was showing an associaiton of the two views since the sadducees also did not believe in a literal resurrection and is what they are most know for, but not that the two views were or are supposed to be identical.
 
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asterisktom

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It wasn't a dig but I was showing an associaiton of the two views since the sadducees also did not believe in a literal resurrection and is what they are most know for, but not that there were identical.

OK, thanks.
 

swaimj

<img src=/swaimj.gif>
Tom. How do you interpret Paul's teaching about the resurrection in I Cor 15? The concern there among the Corinthians is about Christians who have already died. If there is no physical resurrection, what is the hope for Christians who die?
 

asterisktom

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Tom. How do you interpret Paul's teaching about the resurrection in I Cor 15? The concern there among the Corinthians is about Christians who have already died. If there is no physical resurrection, what is the hope for Christians who die?

My foundational hope is to be with Christ forever. I am assured that that will happen. As Paul said (2 Corinthians 5:8):

"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

Christ in us is "the hope of glory".
 

swaimj

<img src=/swaimj.gif>
My foundational hope is to be with Christ forever. I am assured that that will happen. As Paul said (2 Corinthians 5:8):

"We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord."

Christ in us is "the hope of glory".
I think that's a cryptic reply at best and it doesn't address the issues I raised concerning I Corinthians 15.
 

AnotherBaptist

New Member
Ok gang what do you think...is this the spiritual "born again" or physical reference of the first resurrection? Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Unless one believes that those in the context who take part in that first resurrection were somehow Spiritually "beheaded" before they were "spiritually" resurrected, then I would say it is a physical resurrection. We die spiritually when we are born physically, not when our heads get lopped off.
 

asterisktom

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I think that's a cryptic reply at best and it doesn't address the issues I raised concerning I Corinthians 15.

It is perhaps cryptic because you are not used to thinking along these lines. What is your real hope, the blessed hope? Is it (as some have told me) the rapture? Is it even the resurrection? These all would be transient things. Christ is our blessed hope.

I held off on commenting on 1 Cor. 15 because of two reasons:
1. I am still sorting things out.
2. That passage requires more comments and study than I have time for now.
 
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