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Five Effects of seeing God as personal rather than absolutistic

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Odemus:
Free will is unable to answer the question of original sin as well.Even assuming that Lucifer had a choice as to whether or not to rebel against God, it still doesn't answer the question of where that sin originated or how God could have created something perfect with the ability to sin. Harmonizing God's sovereignty with man's accountability will always pose somewhat of a paradox because we are finite and he is infinite.
This is a standard Calvinist answer. "We can't understand it - It's a paradox!" There is no problem with the freewill position in saying that a perfect being could choose to be less than perfect, if freewill indeed means the choice to obey or disobey.

There is a problem in consistent Calvinism. Consistent Calvinism has God as the author of evil, since everything has been initiated by him.
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by PreachtheWord:
Scott, show me the New Testament passages that demand that freewill exists. You cannot use verses that mention the offer of salvation as support.[/wuote]

Luke 7:30 states that the "Pharisees rejected God's purpose for themselves." In Acts 7, Stephen tells the Sanhedrin that the people are resisting the Holy Spirit. Why can I not use verses that offer salvation to ALL men as support? Why do you not like Old Testament verses? Is it possible that God removed free will from humans when Christ came?

I married a girl named Ruth. I set my love on her from among other girls and chose to marry her. Why can't the Father do the same for His Son?
He could, but God loved all men and died for all men and desires all men to be saved. You only were looking for one.

I desired to marry - God desires to save.
God desires to save all men.

I actually married the one I had a special love for - God actually saves those who He has a special love for.
So he doesn't love the "non-elect?" That directly goes against Scripture there.

Election is everywhere and you cannot escape its reality. I submit that your problem is with submission to the authority of God. Once you settle this, you will post with a different tone.
You're right - God through Christ elected a body called the church in the same way that God elected Israel. Not all the Israelites were "saved," but he chose the distinct body. (Romans 11).

Oh, and the idea that you "submitted" is blatantly wrong. You have no idea about my submission to God, nor about what I have done in my life to demonstrate that submission. I'll forgive you for it, though!
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
An supralapsarian would agree with you there. We infralapsarians do not.
And I would state that a sovereign God who in the way Calvinists would define "sovereign" would have to be the cause of evil in the world. How can you logically come to a infralapsarian conclusion? Either way, God decided that man should fall.

"An infralapsarian view, it seems to us, has as a natural corollary the idea that when Adam fell, the natural world was therefore changed for the worse. According to that view, God had to change His building plans-His natural laws-to inject certain "natural calamities" after Adam fell." - From Progressive Calvinism

Yet you still insist that man can do spiritual good by repenting and believing without God giving him new life first. That is illogical.
That would be if I did not believe that God regenerates a man to the point where he can choose.

Why do you cling so tightly to the idea that you must have free will? Why not just trust God to give you a new nature to repent and believe without claiming you made the decision on your own to repent and believe?
Considering I've already got a new nature, there's no need to 'repent and believe' again.

And why would you repent and believe and Joe Blow sitting next to you at work not repent and believe without that meaning that you were "better" in some way naturally than Joe Blow?
Dunno. I made a choice to follow. It's got to be a better deal to give Joe Blow a chance than to create him just for destruction. That would make me much "better" than him, too, don't ya think? (See the post above for an example of a Calvinist who insists that he has been loved especially - where logically the 'non-elect' are not.)

In the same tone, here's a question for you: Why can't you escape the crutch of having to believe that God controls everything for you instead of realizing that God wants a personal relationship with you and he loved you so much to give you a genuine choice?
 

russell55

New Member
Consistent Calvinism has God as the author of evil, since everything has been initiated by him.
If initiating everything makes God the author of evil, then how do YOU get around God being the author of evil? At the very least, God got the whole ball rolling with His creative act. If He hadn't created, would there be evil?
 

Baptist Believer

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by russell55:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Consistent Calvinism has God as the author of evil, since everything has been initiated by him.
If initiating everything makes God the author of evil, then how do YOU get around God being the author of evil? At the very least, God got the whole ball rolling with His creative act. If He hadn't created, would there be evil?</font>[/QUOTE]God allowed for the possibility of evil when he created freedom for his creative creatures. Humankind, who in the image of God also create, create by our actions both good and evil. Humankind created evil. The fault is ours. We have a very real freedom to act (within the context of human frailties and material conditions), both to love God or reject Him. Doing things contrary to this reciprocal love for God and each other is sin.

No conflict if you can come to terms with free will.
 

russell55

New Member
The fault is ours
I agree that the fault is ours. But Scott seems to say that God simply initiating things makes Him the author of evil.

If that's the case, then even the free will model of things makes God the author of evil, for as you say:

God allowed for the possibility of evil when he created freedom for his creative creatures.
But it is even more than allowing for the possibility of evil, for couldn't He foresee that giving people "freewill" would result in the fall? And yet, He chose to create man with "freewill" anyway, didn't He? God started the ball rolling, a ball which He knew, sooner rather than later, would result in mankind's sin.

I don't see how this makes God any less the initiator of evil than the Calvinist model does. The Calvinist model doesn't say that God influenced Adam and Eve to sin, but rather that God decided to allow them to sin for a purpose.

The only real difference I see between the two models of the origin of evil is that the purpose for allowing evil is different. In the free will model, the purpose in allowing evil is so that men would have free will. In the Calvinist model, part of the purpose for allowing evil is so that God could redeem mankind.

But the mechanism (for lack of a better word) for the origin of evil is the same--a choice by God to allow it for a purpose.
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
That would be if I did not believe that God regenerates a man to the point where he can choose.
A person is either regenerated(born again) or he is not. There is not such thing as being partially regenerated or partially born again.

FYI, I do have a relationship with God - He is my Creator, I am His creature. He is the Potter, I am His clay. The rest of our relationship flows from this.


One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...
 

KenH

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
"An infralapsarian view, it seems to us, has as a natural corollary the idea that when Adam fell, the natural world was therefore changed for the worse. According to that view, God had to change His building plans-His natural laws-to inject certain "natural calamities" after Adam fell." - From Progressive Calvinism
God did not decree the Fall - that is a major difference between supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism. That does not mean that God didn't know it would happen and had already decided how to deal with it.

God is never taken by surprise by any event.

One redeemed by Christ's blood,

Ken
Were it not for grace...
 

Scott J

Active Member
Site Supporter
Originally posted by ScottEmerson:
You're right - God through Christ elected a body called the church in the same way that God elected Israel. Not all the Israelites were "saved," but he chose the distinct body. (Romans 11).
The Bible teaches individual election of the saints (Romans 8 & 9).

I consider myself Calvinist. However, I agree with you that God has allowed men a measure of free will. I believe in the perfect will of God and the permissive will of God. I think the Bible establishes both. Where I depart from you is on the question of which catagory salvation falls into.

I accept the biblical premise that man is totally depraved and incapable of righteousness. The other 4 points logically progress from this truth. Arminianism must reject this premise in order to allow man enough good to possess saving faith.

The elect are saved by the perfect will of God which He foreknew before the foundation of the world. The primary point isn't whether man has free will or not. The Bible teaches that we do. The truth of Calvinism lies in the fact that man will not deny himself and choose God.

God does not author evil. He permits it in such a way as to contribute to His intended ends.
 

ScottEmerson

Active Member
Originally posted by russell55:
If that's the case, then even the free will model of things makes God the author of evil.
Not necessarily. Let's say I have a child. I can either force him to do evil, or I can give him a choice. If he disobeys, that's his own doing, not me as a parent.

In the Calvinist model, part of the purpose for allowing evil is so that God could redeem mankind.
No, in the Calvinist model (from Calvin himself), God allowed evil so he could only save a few. For the rest, he allowed evil so they could be created to be damned.
 

russell55

New Member
Not necessarily. Let's say I have a child. I can either force him to do evil, or I can give him a choice. If he disobeys, that's his own doing, not me as a parent.
Please show me where any Calvinist says God forced Adam to do evil--or, for that matter, that He forces anyone to do evil. Can you find any Calvinist who says Adam--or anyone else--didn't have a choice? Can you find any Calvinist who says that when anyone, including Adam, disobeys, it's not His own doing, but God's?

No, in the Calvinist model (from Calvin himself), God allowed evil so he could only save a few. For the rest, he allowed evil so they could be created to be damned.
Please notice that I wrote that part of His purpose for allowing evil is to redeem mankind. (And I don't believe it is only a few! Redeemed mankind will be too great to number.) I can only guess at the other reasons for allowing sin. I don't know the reason He created people who will be damned, but the freewill model has exactly the same problem.

[ June 25, 2002, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: russell55 ]
 
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