Five Fold Ministry

[Bethelassoc]

Hello all,

I wanted to know if anyone has or had an experience with this teaching. I've just been introduced to this topic lately and I wanted know who's had to confront it and how was it handled. Does this teaching invade the Baptist churches as it does others? My experience has been with a good friend of mine's church, which is non-denominational, but of the Baptist faith.

Thanks,

David

 

[Marcia]

What I know about it is that it has to do with teaching that the five offices of the church must be restored, and these include apostles and prophets. Another name for this movement is the New Apostolic Reformation. It has troubling teachings, including the fact that there is no agreement on what apostles and prophets should be doing in the church today, if anything at all.

I was just at a Christian conference sponsored by EMNR (Evangelical Ministries to New Religions) held at Midwestern Baptist Seminary where this this topic was addressed and you can get the tape on it. It's called "The New Apostolic Reformation Movement" and it was given by Craig Branch of the Apologetics Resource Center (Birmingham, AL). The site for the tapes is http://www.emnr.org/forms/2005tapes.htm

It's the 4th tape listed at that link.

Here's an article by Rob Bowman, "The Faulty Foundation of the Five Fold Ministry."
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/robin.brace/5fold.htm

It seems to be affiliated with a movement called the Kansas City Prophets (Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Paul Cain and others) and groups like the Latter Rain, Manifest Sons of God, and Kingdom Now.

Articles on Kansas City Prophets:
http://www.banner.org.uk/contents.html

http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Delphi/9437/8.htm

If you google Five Fold Ministry, you will probably come up with more info but these should be a start.

Yes, these teachings are invading a lot of churches.

[ March 22, 2005, 01:59 PM: Message edited by: Dr. Bob ]

 

[Bethelassoc]

Marcia,

Thanks for the information. I know that Bill Hamon is a big part of this movement. My friend has a video of him talking about the movement and remarks that he makes are quite hilarious and ludicrous at the same time.

It has troubling teachings, including the fact that there is no agreement on what apostles and prophets should be doing in the church today, if anything at all.

You're right. The ones that were heading it up in my friend's church couldn't give a straight answer to what they believed the "apostles" and "prophets" were supposed to be doing.

Fortunately, this hasn't taken place in our church.

David

 

[Dr. Bob]

Apostles in the church today? Hello. The Bible defines who has that title and it surely isn't anyone I know today!

 

[richard n koustas]

A speaker at our church once used the term `5-fold ministry of
the
church'. Being unfamiliar with the term, I googled it. The
first
hit was for some seminar promoting it, the second hit was to a site
that claimed the whole idea mostly bunk...

Apparently, the `5-fold ministry' is taken from the following
passage:

"...and *he* has given some apostles, and some prophets, and some
evangelists, and some shepherds and teachers, for the perfecting of
the saints; with a view to [the] work of [the] ministry, with a view
to the edifying of the body of Christ; until we all arrive at the
unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, at [the]
full-grown man, at [the] measure of the stature of the fulness of the
Christ;" – Eph. 4:11-13.

apostles, prophets, evangelists, shepherds, teachers. The argument
against the 5-fold ministry, in brief, is that apostles and prophets
are no longer.

So, I looked up `apostle' and `prophet' (both in the
Bible and some
trusted biblical references) and I discovered that apostles and prophets are dead, indeed!

 

[Bethelassoc]

And on top of all of that, their defense is that we restrict God. I stated that if that means I'm "restricting" Him to his Holy Word, then I'm guilty.

 

[Gold Dragon]

I am not well versed in the Five-fold ministry model, but from scanning the websites of a few Five-fold churches, it sounds like "Apostles" is used as a synonym for missionary or church-planter while "Prophets" is used to describe those who express the gift of prophecy.

I don't believe they hold the positions of authority that traditionally have been attributed to those offices but I could be wrong.

 

[Bethelassoc]

Gold Dragon:

As Marcia pointed out, as a whole, they really can't define what the roles of apostle and prophet are. Some believe they have the same sort of authority that the apostles possessed (read Bill Hamon's stuff), while others water it down. If it's "missionary" or "church planter" and speaking truths of God's word, then there's nothing wrong with calling it that. Why embellish?

It's plain in the Bible that the apostles and prophets were unlike any other. That foundation has been laid (Eph 2:20), but they overlook that.

I believe the nature of this teaching is that some of them want to have this type of power and authority over the local church, but when they are called on the carpet, they get "fuzzy theology".

Overall, it's as if God can't take care of his church, so HE needs help with us pastors, teachers, and evangelists.....

Just my 2 cents,

David

 

[Gold Dragon]

Thanks David.

While every church model can be abused and taken too far, I think most models are after the same thing: Trying to effectively organize the body of Christ in a biblical manner to do His work.

I think taking any model too seriously as the "God ordained way to do church" is a problem and I'm sure there are some Five-fold churches that do this.

I think many of the concerns that have been expressed in this thread about the Five-fold model can also be applied to some Baptist applications of the "Autonomy of the local church" and the "Priesthood of all believers".

I should add that I am not trying to defend the five-fold model that I am still trying to figure out, but I just want us to be fair in our criticism of other Christians.

 

[Marcia]

Aside from teaching the restoration of the five offices, they have other problematic teachings as well. Even if they are not abusing the title of prophet or apostle (although I think apostles are dead), their other teachings are troubling.

Revelation now is often given precedence over the Bible. Also, one of the leaders in this movement said that NT prophecy does not have to be 100% correct, like OT prophecy did. Those are some of the issues that are red flags.

 

[Bethelassoc]

I should add that I am not trying to defend the five-fold model that I am still trying to figure out, but I just want us to be fair in our criticism of other Christians.

I understand completely. I hope I didn't come off offensive.

I myself have been studying this model trying to figure out the reasoning behind it, and these are well meaning people and they have often said that they want to do what God wants them to.

The major criticism isn't against a people but against a doctrine. I'm sure we all are of the opinion that we need to hold to the structure of scripture, so substitution of the word is dangerous, even though they are well meaning people. The apostles had their work and they did what was set forth. How can somebody open that door again? Or why do we want to take on that title when it is tied in to men like Peter and Paul who met the requirements of apostleship?

These are questions that those I know can't answer. I think it's dangerous to try to imply duties that Christ Himself supplied to a specific number. His word is perfect and doesn't need another round of apostles and prophets to lay a foundation again. It's a danger to a young Christian who doesn't mind being a part of a group that will out do what the apostles have done (again, you have to read what some of these "leaders" have written).

I'm rambling.....my main point to all of this was to find out if anyone has experienced this teaching and what they've done about confronting it.

David

 

[Dr. Bob]

They are also wrenching the Word of God by dividing the gift to the church of the Shepherd/Teacher.

The construct in Greek is clear. He gave
some apostles
some prophets
some evangelists
some shepherds and teachers

Doesn't say "and some teachers" in this parallel phrasing.

I have never seen an apostle
I have never seen a prophet
I have never seen an evangelist (though so many call themselves such)
I have seen a few shepherd/teachers