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FIVE POINT ARMINIAN
- Thread starter Brother James
- Start date
Ray Berrian
New Member
Tom Mann,
Would you have been a fair and just (justice) mail carrier if you would have only delivered the mail to all of your favorite clients while burning the mail every day of those who you cared less about as human beings?
I believe the U.S. government required justice in your deals with all of your people.
God requires Divine Justice of Himself in dealing with all lost sinners.
I know you rarely hear of Divine justice in Calvinistic churches. Now you frequently hear about the 'wrath' of Almighty God, but if you study you will learn of the other attributes of God including His love for sinners and saints.
I rest my case.
Would you have been a fair and just (justice) mail carrier if you would have only delivered the mail to all of your favorite clients while burning the mail every day of those who you cared less about as human beings?
I believe the U.S. government required justice in your deals with all of your people.
God requires Divine Justice of Himself in dealing with all lost sinners.
I know you rarely hear of Divine justice in Calvinistic churches. Now you frequently hear about the 'wrath' of Almighty God, but if you study you will learn of the other attributes of God including His love for sinners and saints.
I rest my case.
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Tom
The matter of Acts 13:48 is who did this appointing, or setting, or addicting? Was it God or the man or person involved. You do realize that man is capable of appointing his own attention,or setting him self on a certain road,or for that matter becomming addicted or obbessed with something. Therefore all this verse is saying is that the person involved couldn't get enough of it. As you can tell I'm addicted I can't get enough of God's word. Your view of what is trully being said in this sentence is being clouded by your view of Sovereignty. You see God as controlling ever single thought of man when scripture never says this at all.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
The matter of Acts 13:48 is who did this appointing, or setting, or addicting? Was it God or the man or person involved. You do realize that man is capable of appointing his own attention,or setting him self on a certain road,or for that matter becomming addicted or obbessed with something. Therefore all this verse is saying is that the person involved couldn't get enough of it. As you can tell I'm addicted I can't get enough of God's word. Your view of what is trully being said in this sentence is being clouded by your view of Sovereignty. You see God as controlling ever single thought of man when scripture never says this at all.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
I
ILUVLIGHT
Guest
Hi Whatever;
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Not so! If it said so you wouldn't be afraid to show the passage.
May Christ Shine His Light On Us All;
Mike
Dr. Berrian, Th.D.,
That said, we have I think very common ground in what Christ has done for us. The question of how and why He did it will always be up for debate until.... we are with Him. Appreciated your post.
Tom Mann RCPO/RMC
Are you implying that there are those on the route that I care less about as human beings? Don't miss a chance to put in a dig do ya?
They expect me to put the right mail in the right box on the day I recieve it... And yes, I am expected to be courtious and fair in dealing with my customers..
Not always. Justice would send the offender straight to Hell if I'm not mistaken. Sometimes of His good will and pleasure He chooses to forgo Divine Justice and show mercy.
You are correct there,at least in our church. We usually hear more on Divine Mercy.
No, see the above statement....
If you study.... there ya go condesending again. Still, if you have some recommendation of something I should read... I'll give it a look.
Yes I do, but I've always viewed that as the problem.
That said, we have I think very common ground in what Christ has done for us. The question of how and why He did it will always be up for debate until.... we are with Him. Appreciated your post.
Tom Mann RCPO/RMC
The argument seem to hinge on the interpretation of whether or not the actions of man (belief) contributes toward his salvation.
The wages of sin is death, no exceptions, even for Jesus, God never forgive sin, those wages "MUST BE PAID", so it's impossible for man to pay those wages himself except by dying/going to hell, so it's not possible for man to "save himself".
Jesus paid those wages, not only for us, but also for the whole world, so why isn't "everyone saved"???
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
God requires something else before allowing Jesus's death to count for our death, and that is "FAITH".
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Faith isn't a "works", but a "BELIEF", a "THOUGHT" in the heart/mind of a person.
But do we control the "thoughts" of our mind, or does God??
Sin is conceived in the heart/mind of people, but God doesn't tempt man with evil, so obviously, our heart/mind isn't controlled by God.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
With man free to think/believe as he choses, man become responsible for his "UnBelief", but in doing so, it also makes him responsibile for paying the wages of sin himself.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
In dying for the sins of the whole world, Jesus removed the responsibility of "ANYONE" being "unsaved", From him, to Man, and man's "unbelief".
Judgment day, no one will be able to say, "YOU" (God) never gave me an opportunity to be saved, and the Gospel, preached in all the world, will be a witness that it was offered.
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (respector of persons)
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
The wages of sin is death, no exceptions, even for Jesus, God never forgive sin, those wages "MUST BE PAID", so it's impossible for man to pay those wages himself except by dying/going to hell, so it's not possible for man to "save himself".
Jesus paid those wages, not only for us, but also for the whole world, so why isn't "everyone saved"???
1Jo 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
God requires something else before allowing Jesus's death to count for our death, and that is "FAITH".
Ro 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Faith isn't a "works", but a "BELIEF", a "THOUGHT" in the heart/mind of a person.
But do we control the "thoughts" of our mind, or does God??
Sin is conceived in the heart/mind of people, but God doesn't tempt man with evil, so obviously, our heart/mind isn't controlled by God.
Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin:
Jas 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
With man free to think/believe as he choses, man become responsible for his "UnBelief", but in doing so, it also makes him responsibile for paying the wages of sin himself.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
In dying for the sins of the whole world, Jesus removed the responsibility of "ANYONE" being "unsaved", From him, to Man, and man's "unbelief".
Judgment day, no one will be able to say, "YOU" (God) never gave me an opportunity to be saved, and the Gospel, preached in all the world, will be a witness that it was offered.
Ro 3:22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: (respector of persons)
Mt 24:14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Well, I see our good doctor is at it again.
Sorry…that should read “Doctor”.
For some reason Ray thinks he is the only one that has ever study in this branch of learning. It is very difficult for some to post one note without putting down others, and lifting up self. It would be nice to see “these” to lift-up God for a change. I lost respect for Dr Ray, when he would not call down a poster that made a off the wall, unsupported biblically and somewhat strange statement and did this for the poster was from the same doctrinal system as he. This to me showed Ray is bias toward his system and even to the point it would deny the very Word of God.
Here are a few more helpful tips from me to you Ray, to help with this pride.
1) When someone does not agree with you, this does not mean they are uneducated.
2) There are other well-supported, systematic theology systems, other then what you (ray) espouse and (and this is key to the point) are not “from the devil” as you claim.
3) You can learn from anyone, (where comes another key) if you listen.
As before…, No charge. But if you keep it up, I’ll start charging for this help and I’m not cheap.
In Christ..James SDB
Sorry…that should read “Doctor”.
For some reason Ray thinks he is the only one that has ever study in this branch of learning. It is very difficult for some to post one note without putting down others, and lifting up self. It would be nice to see “these” to lift-up God for a change. I lost respect for Dr Ray, when he would not call down a poster that made a off the wall, unsupported biblically and somewhat strange statement and did this for the poster was from the same doctrinal system as he. This to me showed Ray is bias toward his system and even to the point it would deny the very Word of God.
Here are a few more helpful tips from me to you Ray, to help with this pride.
1) When someone does not agree with you, this does not mean they are uneducated.
2) There are other well-supported, systematic theology systems, other then what you (ray) espouse and (and this is key to the point) are not “from the devil” as you claim.
3) You can learn from anyone, (where comes another key) if you listen.
As before…, No charge. But if you keep it up, I’ll start charging for this help and I’m not cheap.
In Christ..James SDB
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
The issue here is the DIFFERENCE between "Atoning Sacrifice" (NIV - 1John 2:2) Completed at the cross - vs FULL ATONEMENT (Lev 16) that requires BOTH the Work of Christ as the LAMB of God -- AND the UNIQUE role of Christ as High Priest (Heb 4,7-10) also included in the Day of Atonement definition God gives us in Lev 16.
All this "does not count" language is "pure Calvinism" as it IGNORES the difference between these key points in God's Word.
By glossing over the entire teaching on Atonement they end up with "death of Christ does not count" language as it relates to the faith of the INDIVIDUAL.
Arminians who play that game with them - will simply fall into the Calvinist trap. The game is difused by simply observing the BIBLE teaching on Atonement in Lev 16 and noting the BIBLE claims for the "Atoning SACRIFICE" 1John 2:2 completed at the cross.
By letting the Bible (not Calvinism) be our guide - the problem goes away and Romans 10 is then a PERFECT illustration of the SEQUENCE between faith and salvation.
In Christ,
Bob
All this "does not count" language is "pure Calvinism" as it IGNORES the difference between these key points in God's Word.
By glossing over the entire teaching on Atonement they end up with "death of Christ does not count" language as it relates to the faith of the INDIVIDUAL.
Arminians who play that game with them - will simply fall into the Calvinist trap. The game is difused by simply observing the BIBLE teaching on Atonement in Lev 16 and noting the BIBLE claims for the "Atoning SACRIFICE" 1John 2:2 completed at the cross.
By letting the Bible (not Calvinism) be our guide - the problem goes away and Romans 10 is then a PERFECT illustration of the SEQUENCE between faith and salvation.
In Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Whosoever Believes – is saved.
Romans 10
In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!
By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!
Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -
#2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
#3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
#4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.
=================================================
The basics of the ONE Gospel message that goes into all the World via nature.
condition –
And using that Ps 19 context – Paul then continues…
Romans 10
saved - salvation to those who believe. The fact that one who believes and is saved will continue to read and study and obey - does not abolish the fact of salvation just as stated above - at the time we believe.
Salvation comes to the one who confesses and believes. Then we go on to follow in the works of obedience – including water Baptism
In Rom 10 the sequence is the expected Arminian sequence.
#1. Believe in Christ after hearing the Gospel as you are being DRAWN to God
#2. This is a step toward God in righteousness
#3. Confess that you know believe and you will be “born-again” forgiven and saved!
By contrast the “expected” Calvinist sequence is
#1. Regenerated by God – forgiven, born-again “Alive and IN Christ”.
#2. Discover that God has saved you and that you are already born-again.
#3. Believe in the one that has put you in this saved state of existence.
#4. Confess that you are not only born-again and alive-in Christ, but NOW you also believe!
Notice that the “expected” Arminian sequence also appears in Acts 26 -
#1. Eyes opened by the preaching. Paul needs to go and be used by God to Open their eyes to truth.
#2. They need to CHOOSE to turn from darkness to light. (Christ is the one who coming into the world enlightens all mankind)
#3. And having turned – to be transferred FROM the dominion of Satan TO The dominion (Kingdom) of God. (Born again) Child of God.
#4. Having transitioned into God’s kingdom they are forgiven and saved.
=================================================
The basics of the ONE Gospel message that goes into all the World via nature.
Now the part everyone knows --
The full text quoted in vs 18 above is as follows
Clearly Paul is appealing (again) to nature's voice in declaring the truth of God - so that "they (the people - Jew and gentile) did hear" - fulfilling the
condition –
And using that Ps 19 context – Paul then continues…
Ray Berrian
New Member
Jarthur011,
Hey, Jarthur, I really think I like you as a person. You like to play with words as I do. One might begin to think you are trying to mature me in Christ, which as a pastor, I most often would allow the Holy Spirit to work in the person's life.
He may be using your words to hurry me along in this process, or perhaps even my straight forward wording might be prodding you into a clearer understanding of a Christians relationship to God. The saw cuts both ways, so it is a good thing.
You, I think, only see the earned doctorate and this confuses you as to who I really am as a person. I have learned from 'street people' and I have learned from 'professor types.' This is what makes me who I am today. I always learn something from everyone and I will give you time to find something new that I do not know.
I have studied the Word of God for 51 years so the seminary who awarded me the doctorate, apparently thought I had some things right.
I have always taken the best from what preachers and laity have taught me and have discarded the things that were not helpful to me for ministry.
Do you find a problem with calling Dr. Sproul by this title or do you merely call him Mr. R.C. Sproul?
Is it wrong for Christians to speak of Dr. Arthur W. Pink or should we all merely say Mr. Pink, just so these men do not become filled with pride?
I hope you would not be tugging me downward only on the basis of being an Arminian theologian.
Hey, Jarthur, I really think I like you as a person. You like to play with words as I do. One might begin to think you are trying to mature me in Christ, which as a pastor, I most often would allow the Holy Spirit to work in the person's life.
He may be using your words to hurry me along in this process, or perhaps even my straight forward wording might be prodding you into a clearer understanding of a Christians relationship to God. The saw cuts both ways, so it is a good thing.
You, I think, only see the earned doctorate and this confuses you as to who I really am as a person. I have learned from 'street people' and I have learned from 'professor types.' This is what makes me who I am today. I always learn something from everyone and I will give you time to find something new that I do not know.
I have studied the Word of God for 51 years so the seminary who awarded me the doctorate, apparently thought I had some things right.
I have always taken the best from what preachers and laity have taught me and have discarded the things that were not helpful to me for ministry.
Do you find a problem with calling Dr. Sproul by this title or do you merely call him Mr. R.C. Sproul?
Is it wrong for Christians to speak of Dr. Arthur W. Pink or should we all merely say Mr. Pink, just so these men do not become filled with pride?
I hope you would not be tugging me downward only on the basis of being an Arminian theologian.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Ray,
Let it be known, I feel each person should be as educated as the Lord would allow. However, I cannot say that education helps all people. Some enter school as a fool and leave as an educated fool. That last statement has a long explanation; I hope you understand my meaning.
I do not “tug down” your degree but rather your assessments. I have said before that your degree is truly something to be proud of, and I do mean it. In a very simple yet useful way, it shows others that do not know you, that you have study in the field in which you also sign your title. This should place some weight in your statement. But this weight can work against you as you have just witnessed. It is your statement that will carry the weight, not your degree. When you say such things as…
”No creditably person would consider Calvin’s writings”
or..”You follow a doctrine from hell”
or…”you guys need to study the Bible and not a man”
...and you follow this by signing your name and title with the weight that goes with this title, then your title must go down with your statement. These statements above, made by you are just not true and it is YOU that places it under your title. This leads to a mock by others of your title.
On the other hand, if you make a GREAT statement and follow by signing your name and title, when others read it they say..
”now that is what I’m talking about!!”. And follow with a dance “Go Ray…go ray…go ray”
Later when they use this statement, they also use your weight in your title…”well…Dr Ray says……”. Notice it is not your title, but your statement that proves your studies.
I’m sure you do not demand your close friends to call you doctor, for they know you and that you have studied. As to how I would have address Dr Pink, in person I would call him Doctor Pink. On a post on this BB I would only use ..”pink”..for it is his name that carries the weight after writing many books. Sproul …the same way. At some point the degree becomes 2nd to the name. Pink and Sproul do not need titles for they have a proven record and it is their name that carries them. In a book that I write I would first address each as a doctor and follow with just their last name.
You are right, I do feel you and I would have a good time over coffee and I would even pay. I have gleamed many good things from your post, even though I hold to another position. Much is lost in a forum such as we have here, but it appears that your assessments are very bias and have shown a few things lacking. I have not seen anything out of line when you address the Bible. Its when you address Calvinism that it becomes clear that you are using 2nd hand information.
You do not have to be Calvinistic to study and KNOW what you are talking about. A good easy read and over view of Calvinism is James Montgomery Boice, “Foundations of the Christian Faith”. If you read something like this, you may not agree with it, but you would drop the ..”uneducated Calvin”…”from the devil”…and show a better understanding in your post.
In Christ…James
Let it be known, I feel each person should be as educated as the Lord would allow. However, I cannot say that education helps all people. Some enter school as a fool and leave as an educated fool. That last statement has a long explanation; I hope you understand my meaning.
I do not “tug down” your degree but rather your assessments. I have said before that your degree is truly something to be proud of, and I do mean it. In a very simple yet useful way, it shows others that do not know you, that you have study in the field in which you also sign your title. This should place some weight in your statement. But this weight can work against you as you have just witnessed. It is your statement that will carry the weight, not your degree. When you say such things as…
”No creditably person would consider Calvin’s writings”
or..”You follow a doctrine from hell”
or…”you guys need to study the Bible and not a man”
...and you follow this by signing your name and title with the weight that goes with this title, then your title must go down with your statement. These statements above, made by you are just not true and it is YOU that places it under your title. This leads to a mock by others of your title.
On the other hand, if you make a GREAT statement and follow by signing your name and title, when others read it they say..
”now that is what I’m talking about!!”. And follow with a dance “Go Ray…go ray…go ray”
Later when they use this statement, they also use your weight in your title…”well…Dr Ray says……”. Notice it is not your title, but your statement that proves your studies.
I’m sure you do not demand your close friends to call you doctor, for they know you and that you have studied. As to how I would have address Dr Pink, in person I would call him Doctor Pink. On a post on this BB I would only use ..”pink”..for it is his name that carries the weight after writing many books. Sproul …the same way. At some point the degree becomes 2nd to the name. Pink and Sproul do not need titles for they have a proven record and it is their name that carries them. In a book that I write I would first address each as a doctor and follow with just their last name.
You are right, I do feel you and I would have a good time over coffee and I would even pay. I have gleamed many good things from your post, even though I hold to another position. Much is lost in a forum such as we have here, but it appears that your assessments are very bias and have shown a few things lacking. I have not seen anything out of line when you address the Bible. Its when you address Calvinism that it becomes clear that you are using 2nd hand information.
You do not have to be Calvinistic to study and KNOW what you are talking about. A good easy read and over view of Calvinism is James Montgomery Boice, “Foundations of the Christian Faith”. If you read something like this, you may not agree with it, but you would drop the ..”uneducated Calvin”…”from the devil”…and show a better understanding in your post.
In Christ…James
Jarthur001
Active Member
BTW..my name is jarthur001, not as you typed...jarthur011.
Just a little joke that Ray and I have going.
IN Christ..James
Just a little joke that Ray and I have going.
IN Christ..James
Unsolicited observations regarding "pedigree":
Jesus chided Nicodemus for being a "Master of Israel" yet not understanding about being "born again"--from above. Jn. Ch. 3.
Jesus chose fishermen and others with little formal education as His apostles, Saul being an exception. Paul's Pharisee training was corrected by the Lord on the road to Damascus. Paul said he was the chiefest of sinners. We can all make that statement.
The "study of God", and the accolades derived thereof have proven to be a worldly endeavor for the most part, with the pinnacle being: Pontifex Maximus and Archbishop of Canterbury. Some Right Reverend Doctors have been used by satan to make the gates of heaven impossible to enter. Did not Jesus point this out to the Scribes and Pharisees of His day?
Never having met Dr. Pink, but having read many of his sermons and observations, I would say he would not be insulted by being called Bro. Arthur--even in a formal context.
Respect of persons is an insidious phenomenon. The world thrives on it.
Selah,
Bro. James(the less)
Sinner, saved by grace
[ October 10, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]
Jesus chided Nicodemus for being a "Master of Israel" yet not understanding about being "born again"--from above. Jn. Ch. 3.
Jesus chose fishermen and others with little formal education as His apostles, Saul being an exception. Paul's Pharisee training was corrected by the Lord on the road to Damascus. Paul said he was the chiefest of sinners. We can all make that statement.
The "study of God", and the accolades derived thereof have proven to be a worldly endeavor for the most part, with the pinnacle being: Pontifex Maximus and Archbishop of Canterbury. Some Right Reverend Doctors have been used by satan to make the gates of heaven impossible to enter. Did not Jesus point this out to the Scribes and Pharisees of His day?
Never having met Dr. Pink, but having read many of his sermons and observations, I would say he would not be insulted by being called Bro. Arthur--even in a formal context.
Respect of persons is an insidious phenomenon. The world thrives on it.
Selah,
Bro. James(the less)
Sinner, saved by grace
[ October 10, 2005, 10:57 AM: Message edited by: Bro. James ]
Ray Berrian
New Member
Jarthur00l,
I wrote a long post but lost it.
The Doctor from Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia is a very educated man. He was educated in Reformation Theology and because of his denominational ties has to stay with Reformed doctrine. He may well believe it. Men like him do not stray from their denominational label and teaching. If he did he would never have received this historical church in Pennsylvania.
In my dissertation I found out that Augustine loved to study Socrates and Aristotle and included their philosophy into his Christian theology. The god of these two philosophers was a Demiurge. You probably know the meaning and background of this philosophical type god. Other readers may wish to research it.
Calvin studied his mentor Augustine and welcomed all their error that the saint said was the truth.
If Calvinism is not from the Lord, who do you think it is from? You fill in the blank.
I wrote a long post but lost it.
The Doctor from Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia is a very educated man. He was educated in Reformation Theology and because of his denominational ties has to stay with Reformed doctrine. He may well believe it. Men like him do not stray from their denominational label and teaching. If he did he would never have received this historical church in Pennsylvania.
In my dissertation I found out that Augustine loved to study Socrates and Aristotle and included their philosophy into his Christian theology. The god of these two philosophers was a Demiurge. You probably know the meaning and background of this philosophical type god. Other readers may wish to research it.
Calvin studied his mentor Augustine and welcomed all their error that the saint said was the truth.
If Calvinism is not from the Lord, who do you think it is from? You fill in the blank.
Ray Berrian
New Member
If you want to hear an uneducated man, that I value highly, ask for Zac Poonen and his tapes called, "The Fulfilled Christian Life." There are 16 tapes.
Phone 717-721-7775 or Fax 717-721-6695 or Email orders at orders@charityministries.org or write:
Charity Gospel Tape Ministry
400 W. Main St. Suit 1
Ephrata, PA. 17522
I have not heard all of his tapes but the one on "How God Broke Jacob" is one of the best sermons I have ever heard. I believe he might be with the Mennonite Church.
Yes, God uses Peter and Paul types in the ministry. I don't like to hear theological sermons usually, but rather expositional kinds of messages from the Lord.
Phone 717-721-7775 or Fax 717-721-6695 or Email orders at orders@charityministries.org or write:
Charity Gospel Tape Ministry
400 W. Main St. Suit 1
Ephrata, PA. 17522
I have not heard all of his tapes but the one on "How God Broke Jacob" is one of the best sermons I have ever heard. I believe he might be with the Mennonite Church.
Yes, God uses Peter and Paul types in the ministry. I don't like to hear theological sermons usually, but rather expositional kinds of messages from the Lord.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Ray Ray Ray....
You may be missing the point. I'm not saying education is bad. I'm saying you seem to think others have not study this. One must study to know. ok? do we agree on this? YES i'm sure we do. Now please dont act as if others have not. ok? that is my point. Teach me and others when you can..i'm all ears and have a lot to learn. But do not start by saying we have not study. You have done this a few times..
Anyway...
It was not my goal to place James Boice over you or any other man as the one to listen to. His name was given as a resource to learn 1st hand. I may be wrong in my assessments of things, for I am often wrong, but I felt that you had not read 1st hand from a true Calvinist but rather only from others quoting Calvinist. If I'm wrong, forgive me and forget about reading Boice. Boice is not my hero, but is a very good writer that is easy to read.
I have hinted on this before, so let me just ask you upfront. Have you read Calvin 1st hand? This way I will know and will not repeat this over and over.
As to …Augustine … He had a few crazy things that he did. What was that about visiting the graves..and praying over them? Its been a while since I study this, but I'm sure you know what I'm talking about. But what did Augustine write? Is it true? I'm sure you have read his classic…”City of God.” Wow…what a book. Are there some catholic tones in the book? Yes…but there is still a lot to pull from this book..Right?
Did Augustine use Socrates and Aristotle thoughts and or words when writing? Yes I'm sure he did. Does this mean he worshipped Demiurge? Aaaw no You would know this if you read “City of God”.
Many think, I being one, that John used the word “logos” in John 1:1 with many things in mind. One of those things had to do with the teachings of Aristotle's which was …
”when god speaks…what will his word be?”
This came from 800 years before Aristotle when another Greek made this statement…
“A man never steps in the same river twice”
The meaning being all things change and by the next time he steps down..The river has already changed. This lead many Greeks to ask…well if this is the case..why do we see control in the world? This control came to be known as Gods logos. So…many years later it is still asked..If we could hear God speak…what words would he say?
John was saying to the Greeks …God did speak…God has come. Do you want to know what God said? God said..Christ is His word..and Christ is the WORD. As a matter of fact Greeks…this Christ made the world and came to save you as well. Now this is not the only meaning of john 1..but its one of many. Why bring this up? Well it shows that Greek thought can be used to bring forth the truth. John was not wrong to use this word. It fact it reached out to the Greeks.
Back to Augustine and Calvin. Their writings stand on their own. You keep pointing to their background. Give me a hero of your own, and give me 3 days and I bet I can dig up some dirt on him. But the truth is..you do not follow the man do you? I'm sure it is his writings you like.
In Christ..James
Jarthur001
Active Member
City of God..
Book 2 Chapter 19..
OF THE CORRUPTION WHICH HAD GROWN UPON THE ROMAN REPUBLIC BEFORE CHRIST ABOLISHED THE WORSHIP OF THE GODS.
Here, then, is this Roman republic, "which has changed little by little from the fair and virtuous city it was, and has become utterly wicked and dissolute." It is not I who am the first to say this, but their own authors, from whom we learned it for a fee, and who wrote it long before the coming of Christ. You see how, before the coming of Christ, and after the destruction of Carthage, "the primitive manners, instead of undergoing insensible alteration, as hitherto they had done, were swept away as by a torrent; and how depraved by luxury and avarice the youth were." Let them now, on their part, read to us any laws given by their gods to the Roman people, and directed against luxury and avarice. And would that they had only been silent on the subjects of chastity and modesty, and had not demanded from the people indecent and shameful practices, to which they lent a pernicious patronage by their so-called divinity. Let them read our commandments in the Prophets, Gospels, Acts of the Apostles or Epistles; let them peruse the large number of precepts against avarice and luxury which are everywhere read to the congregations that meet for this purpose, and which strike the ear, not with the uncertain sound of a philosophical discussion, but with the thunder of God's own oracle pealing from the clouds. And yet they do not impute to their gods the luxury and avarice, the cruel and dissolute manners, that had rendered the republic utterly wicked and corrupt, even before the coming of Christ; but whatever affliction their pride and effeminacy have exposed them to in these latter days, they furiously impute to our religion. If the kings of the earth and all their subjects, if all princes and judges of the earth, if young men and maidens, old and young, every age, and both sexes; if they whom the Baptist addressed, the publicans and the soldiers, were all together to hearken to and observe the precepts of the Christian religion regarding a just and virtuous life, then should the republic adorn the whole earth with its own felicity, and attain in life everlasting to the pinnacle of kingly glory. But because this man listens and that man scoffs, and most are enamored of the blandishments of vice rather than the wholesome severity of virtue, the people of Christ, whatever be their condition -- whether they be kings, princes, judges, soldiers, or provincials, rich or poor, bond or free, male or female -- are enjoined to endure this earthly republic, wicked and dissolute as it is, that so they may by this endurance win for themselves an eminent place in that most holy and august assembly of angels and republic of heaven, in which the will of God is the law.
************************
After reading this...do you still think Augustine worshipped greek Gods?...or followed Socrates and Aristotle? I think not.
read on..
Chapter 29 book 2
AN EXHORTATION TO THE ROMANS TO RENOUNCE PAGANISM.
This, rather, is the religion worthy of your desires, O admirable Roman race -- theprogeny of your Scaevolas and Scipios, of Regulus, and of Fabricius. This rather covet, this distinguish from that foul vanity and crafty malice of the devils. If there is in your nature any eminent virtue, only by true piety is it purged and perfected, while by impiety it is wrecked and punished. Choose now what you will pursue, that your praise may be not in yourself, but in the true God, in whom is no error. For of popular glory you have had your share; but by the secret providence of God, the true religion was not offered to your choice. Awake, it is now day; as you have already awaked in the persons of some in whose perfect virtue and sufferings for the true faith we glory: for they, contending on all sides with hostile powers, and conquering them all by bravely dying, have purchased for us this country of ours with their blood; to which country we invite you, and exhort you to add yourselves to the number of the citizens of this city, which also has a sanctuary of its own in the true remission of sins.
Do not listen to those degenerate sons of thine who slander Christ and Christians, and impute to them these disastrous times, though they desire times in which they may enjoy rather impunity for their wickedness than a peaceful life. Such has never been Rome's ambition even in regard to her earthly country. Lay hold now on the celestial country, which is easily won, and in which you will reign truly and for ever. For there shall thou find no vestal fire, no Capitoline stone, but the one true God. "No date, no goal will here ordain: But grant an endless, boundlessreign."
No longer, then, follow after false and deceitful gods; abjure them rather, and despise them, bursting forth into true liberty. Gods they are not, but malignant spirits, to whom your eternal happiness will be a sore punishment. Juno, from whom you deduce your origin according to the flesh, did not so bitterly grudge Rome's citadels to the Trojans, as these devils whom yet ye repute gods, grudge an everlasting seat to the race of mankind. And thou thyself hast in no wavering voice passed judgment on them, when thou didst pacify them with games, and yet didst account as infamous the men by whom the plays were acted. Suffer us, then, to assert thy freedom against the unclean spirits who had imposed on thy neck the yoke of celebrating their own shame and filthiness. The actors of these divine crimes thou hast removed from offices of honor; supplicate the true God, that He may remove from thee those gods who delight in their crimes -- a most disgraceful thing if the crimes are really theirs, and a most malicious invention if the. crimes are feigned. Well done, in that thou hast spontaneously banished from the number of your citizens all actors and players. Awake more fully: the majesty of God cannot be propitiated by that which defiles the dignity of man How, then, can you believe that gods who take pleasure in such lewd plays, belong to the number of the holy powers of heaven, when the men by whom these plays are acted are by yourselves refused admission into the number of Roman citizens even of the lowest grade? Incomparably more glorious than Rome, is that heavenly city in which for victory you have truth; for dignity, holiness; for peace, felicity; for life, eternity. Much less does it admit into its society such gods, if thou dost blush to admit into thine such men. Wherefore, if thou wouldst attain to the blessed city, shun the society of devils. They who are propitiated by deeds of shame, are unworthy of the worship of right-hearted men. Let these, then, be obliterated from your worship by the cleansing of the Christian religion, as those men were blotted from your citizenship by the censor's mark.
But, so far as regards carnal benefits, which are the only blessings the wicked desire to enjoy, and carnal miseries, which alone they shrink from enduring, we will show in the following book that the demons have not the power they are supposed to have; and although they had it, we ought rather on that account to despise these blessings, than for the sake of them to worship those gods, and by worshipping them to miss the attainment of these blessings they grudge us. But that they have not even this power which is ascribed to them by those who worship them for the sake of temporal advantages, this, I say, I will prove in the following book; so let us here close the present argument.
*******************
humm now I would say he hold to the true and living God and not as you claim. What do you think?
in Christ..James
Book 2 Chapter 19..
OF THE CORRUPTION WHICH HAD GROWN UPON THE ROMAN REPUBLIC BEFORE CHRIST ABOLISHED THE WORSHIP OF THE GODS.
Here, then, is this Roman republic, "which has changed little by little from the fair and virtuous city it was, and has become utterly wicked and dissolute." It is not I who am the first to say this, but their own authors, from whom we learned it for a fee, and who wrote it long before the coming of Christ. You see how, before the coming of Christ, and after the destruction of Carthage, "the primitive manners, instead of undergoing insensible alteration, as hitherto they had done, were swept away as by a torrent; and how depraved by luxury and avarice the youth were." Let them now, on their part, read to us any laws given by their gods to the Roman people, and directed against luxury and avarice. And would that they had only been silent on the subjects of chastity and modesty, and had not demanded from the people indecent and shameful practices, to which they lent a pernicious patronage by their so-called divinity. Let them read our commandments in the Prophets, Gospels, Acts of the Apostles or Epistles; let them peruse the large number of precepts against avarice and luxury which are everywhere read to the congregations that meet for this purpose, and which strike the ear, not with the uncertain sound of a philosophical discussion, but with the thunder of God's own oracle pealing from the clouds. And yet they do not impute to their gods the luxury and avarice, the cruel and dissolute manners, that had rendered the republic utterly wicked and corrupt, even before the coming of Christ; but whatever affliction their pride and effeminacy have exposed them to in these latter days, they furiously impute to our religion. If the kings of the earth and all their subjects, if all princes and judges of the earth, if young men and maidens, old and young, every age, and both sexes; if they whom the Baptist addressed, the publicans and the soldiers, were all together to hearken to and observe the precepts of the Christian religion regarding a just and virtuous life, then should the republic adorn the whole earth with its own felicity, and attain in life everlasting to the pinnacle of kingly glory. But because this man listens and that man scoffs, and most are enamored of the blandishments of vice rather than the wholesome severity of virtue, the people of Christ, whatever be their condition -- whether they be kings, princes, judges, soldiers, or provincials, rich or poor, bond or free, male or female -- are enjoined to endure this earthly republic, wicked and dissolute as it is, that so they may by this endurance win for themselves an eminent place in that most holy and august assembly of angels and republic of heaven, in which the will of God is the law.
************************
After reading this...do you still think Augustine worshipped greek Gods?...or followed Socrates and Aristotle? I think not.
read on..
Chapter 29 book 2
AN EXHORTATION TO THE ROMANS TO RENOUNCE PAGANISM.
This, rather, is the religion worthy of your desires, O admirable Roman race -- theprogeny of your Scaevolas and Scipios, of Regulus, and of Fabricius. This rather covet, this distinguish from that foul vanity and crafty malice of the devils. If there is in your nature any eminent virtue, only by true piety is it purged and perfected, while by impiety it is wrecked and punished. Choose now what you will pursue, that your praise may be not in yourself, but in the true God, in whom is no error. For of popular glory you have had your share; but by the secret providence of God, the true religion was not offered to your choice. Awake, it is now day; as you have already awaked in the persons of some in whose perfect virtue and sufferings for the true faith we glory: for they, contending on all sides with hostile powers, and conquering them all by bravely dying, have purchased for us this country of ours with their blood; to which country we invite you, and exhort you to add yourselves to the number of the citizens of this city, which also has a sanctuary of its own in the true remission of sins.
Do not listen to those degenerate sons of thine who slander Christ and Christians, and impute to them these disastrous times, though they desire times in which they may enjoy rather impunity for their wickedness than a peaceful life. Such has never been Rome's ambition even in regard to her earthly country. Lay hold now on the celestial country, which is easily won, and in which you will reign truly and for ever. For there shall thou find no vestal fire, no Capitoline stone, but the one true God. "No date, no goal will here ordain: But grant an endless, boundlessreign."
No longer, then, follow after false and deceitful gods; abjure them rather, and despise them, bursting forth into true liberty. Gods they are not, but malignant spirits, to whom your eternal happiness will be a sore punishment. Juno, from whom you deduce your origin according to the flesh, did not so bitterly grudge Rome's citadels to the Trojans, as these devils whom yet ye repute gods, grudge an everlasting seat to the race of mankind. And thou thyself hast in no wavering voice passed judgment on them, when thou didst pacify them with games, and yet didst account as infamous the men by whom the plays were acted. Suffer us, then, to assert thy freedom against the unclean spirits who had imposed on thy neck the yoke of celebrating their own shame and filthiness. The actors of these divine crimes thou hast removed from offices of honor; supplicate the true God, that He may remove from thee those gods who delight in their crimes -- a most disgraceful thing if the crimes are really theirs, and a most malicious invention if the. crimes are feigned. Well done, in that thou hast spontaneously banished from the number of your citizens all actors and players. Awake more fully: the majesty of God cannot be propitiated by that which defiles the dignity of man How, then, can you believe that gods who take pleasure in such lewd plays, belong to the number of the holy powers of heaven, when the men by whom these plays are acted are by yourselves refused admission into the number of Roman citizens even of the lowest grade? Incomparably more glorious than Rome, is that heavenly city in which for victory you have truth; for dignity, holiness; for peace, felicity; for life, eternity. Much less does it admit into its society such gods, if thou dost blush to admit into thine such men. Wherefore, if thou wouldst attain to the blessed city, shun the society of devils. They who are propitiated by deeds of shame, are unworthy of the worship of right-hearted men. Let these, then, be obliterated from your worship by the cleansing of the Christian religion, as those men were blotted from your citizenship by the censor's mark.
But, so far as regards carnal benefits, which are the only blessings the wicked desire to enjoy, and carnal miseries, which alone they shrink from enduring, we will show in the following book that the demons have not the power they are supposed to have; and although they had it, we ought rather on that account to despise these blessings, than for the sake of them to worship those gods, and by worshipping them to miss the attainment of these blessings they grudge us. But that they have not even this power which is ascribed to them by those who worship them for the sake of temporal advantages, this, I say, I will prove in the following book; so let us here close the present argument.
*******************
humm now I would say he hold to the true and living God and not as you claim. What do you think?
in Christ..James
Acts 13:48 and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
KJV </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely!! That very verse is the one that stunned me, held me captive until I prayed and asked our Lord to open my eyes and heart if there were other substantiating verses toward that thought!! He did just that some years back and I've been Calvinist since!!
Remember, we were not "sick", waiting for a line to be thrown to us, or for us to decide! We were "dead", without hope, awaiting God's wrath! Eph 2:1 And YOU He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. v4. BUT GOD, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were DEAD in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ(by grace you have been saved) and raised us up together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus! Praise Him!! Its all about Him, who He is, what He did, how He saved me from wrath! Blessings!
Brother James
New Member
Acts 13:48 and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.
KJV </font>[/QUOTE]Absolutely!! That very verse is the one that stunned me, held me captive until I prayed and asked our Lord to open my eyes and heart if there were other substantiating verses toward that thought!! He did just that some years back and I've been Calvinist since!!
Remember, we were not "sick", waiting for a line to be thrown to us, or for us to decide! We were "dead", without hope, awaiting God's wrath! Eph 2:1 And YOU He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. v4. BUT GOD, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were DEAD in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ(by grace you have been saved) and raised us up together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus! Praise Him!! Its all about Him, who He is, what He did, how He saved me from wrath! Blessings!