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FIVE POINT ARMINIAN
- Thread starter Brother James
- Start date
Ray Berrian
New Member
Two great Greek scholars, Dean Alford and a Baptist theologican say no to Calvinism.
Dean Alfred translated it, 'as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.' Dr. Henry Alford, "The New Testament For English Readers," Baker Book House, 1983, I:745.
The Baptist theologian says, 'ordain' is not the best translation . . . . there is no evidence that Luke had in mind an 'absolutum decretum.' Dr. Archibald Thomas Robertson, "Word Pictures of the New Testament" Harper nd Brothers, 1930, III:200.
As much as some people think studying the Greek and Hebrew has little value. This is why God has given doctors in the church to keep you Calvinists on the right theological track.
The KJV is what I study from also, but it was corrupted before that by the Vulgate--an Augustinian translation to meet the early Calvinistic views of the Roman Catholic Church.
God says, 'Study to show yourselves approved . . .'
Dean Alfred translated it, 'as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.' Dr. Henry Alford, "The New Testament For English Readers," Baker Book House, 1983, I:745.
The Baptist theologian says, 'ordain' is not the best translation . . . . there is no evidence that Luke had in mind an 'absolutum decretum.' Dr. Archibald Thomas Robertson, "Word Pictures of the New Testament" Harper nd Brothers, 1930, III:200.
As much as some people think studying the Greek and Hebrew has little value. This is why God has given doctors in the church to keep you Calvinists on the right theological track.
The KJV is what I study from also, but it was corrupted before that by the Vulgate--an Augustinian translation to meet the early Calvinistic views of the Roman Catholic Church.
God says, 'Study to show yourselves approved . . .'
That really is no surprise! If the bible had been left to us in pictures the Armenians would still find a way to distort the pictures. The doctrines of grace are hated doctrines by Armenians because they find it impossible to totally submit to God and acknowledge his sovereignty in everything. They want to be the active participant, or little God, in their own salvation! For me, I need no great scholar to keep me in line as I have so much gratitude to a holy, almighty and sovereign God that my greatest desire is to never bring Him shame or that He would be displeased with me! What He did for me is of the greatest infinite value and I could never do enough to show my love for Him!
Blessings!
Since education and degrees entered this discussion, I should like to add sojme historical fact. The five points of Calvinism were drafted to counter the five points of Jacobus Arminius first postulated. Hence, the five points of Calvinism, not only make a statement, but indeed, counter the prior claims of Arminius.
Anyone with a modicum of theological education should be aware of this information.
Cheers,
Jim
Anyone with a modicum of theological education should be aware of this information.
Cheers,
Jim
This could be fun.
"Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them" becomes "to which Jesus figured that they were disposed to go".
"And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question" becomes "Paul and Barnabas and some of the others decided to go up to Jerusalem".
Hey, this is fun!
"And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do'" becomes "all that you will decide to do".
"When they had appointed a day for [Paul], they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets" becomes "when a day was disposed for [Paul]".
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God" becomes "those that exist have been allowed by God should they so choose".
Wow. If I had only know that all it takes is some study ...
"Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them" becomes "to which Jesus figured that they were disposed to go".
"And after Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and debate with them, Paul and Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and the elders about this question" becomes "Paul and Barnabas and some of the others decided to go up to Jerusalem".
Hey, this is fun!
"And I said, 'What shall I do, Lord?' And the Lord said to me, 'Rise, and go into Damascus, and there you will be told all that is appointed for you to do'" becomes "all that you will decide to do".
"When they had appointed a day for [Paul], they came to him at his lodging in greater numbers. From morning till evening he expounded to them, testifying to the kingdom of God and trying to convince them about Jesus both from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets" becomes "when a day was disposed for [Paul]".
"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God" becomes "those that exist have been allowed by God should they so choose".
Wow. If I had only know that all it takes is some study ...
Ray Berrian
New Member
That really is no surprise! If the bible had been left to us in pictures the Armenians would still find a way to distort the pictures. The doctrines of grace are hated doctrines by Armenians because they find it impossible to totally submit to God and acknowledge his sovereignty in everything. They want to be the active participant, or little God, in their own salvation! For me, I need no great scholar to keep me in line as I have so much gratitude to a holy, almighty and sovereign God that my greatest desire is to never bring Him shame or that He would be displeased with me! What He did for me is of the greatest infinite value and I could never do enough to show my love for Him!
Blessings!
Blessings!
Jarthur001
Active Member
Oops..yet another boo boo Doctor Berrian. I took a few years of NT greek and guess what? My greek teacher was Calvinist. I have had 2 pastors both with Doctor degrees that thought greek at a major bible college...also Calvinist. I had a 3rd pastor that thought Greek and could read Greek better then any one I know...also Calvinist. This 3rd pastor did not have a doctor's degree, but has been given a honorary doctor's degree from BJU. As it turns out John Calvin spoke proficient Latin, and learned Greek by age 22. Not bad john.
Luther..Calvinist...knew both greek and hebrew. Arthur Pink took greek at Moody Bible Institute. Need i go on?
So I must ask you, why do you think Calvinist do not study? Why is it that YOU think a calvinist could not know greek and that God teaches greek to only non-calvinist?
Shame shame
"things that make ya go hummm"
In Christ...James
Jarthur001
Active Member
Yes and Jim, you are the 1st to post this. This happened 55 years after John Calvin died. I have posed this to others before, but with no reply.
The 5 points were not grouped my John Calvin. They were based on his writings. This grouping was done by others after the 5 points of Arminius were made and the church took a stand against what they thought was the WRONG 5 points of Arminius.
This is why I KNEW others had no idea what they were talking about and may never have even read Calvin, yet claimed to be experts.
Jim..you seem to have study this.
In Christ..James
Jarthur,
Indeed, if I weren't a Calvinist, I would be ashamed of myself following such an heretic as Arminius.
The more I read, the more I believe that the opponents have neither read nor studied Reformed theology.
We had a little ditty in seminary:
There was a laddie in college named Breeze,
Weighed down with his BA's and BD's,
Said the doctor, "It's plain,
You're killing yourself by degrees."
My degrees never saved a soul, nor proved a point, so I shall leave the letters to universities and the temperature.
Cheers,
Jim
Indeed, if I weren't a Calvinist, I would be ashamed of myself following such an heretic as Arminius.
The more I read, the more I believe that the opponents have neither read nor studied Reformed theology.
We had a little ditty in seminary:
There was a laddie in college named Breeze,
Weighed down with his BA's and BD's,
Said the doctor, "It's plain,
You're killing yourself by degrees."
My degrees never saved a soul, nor proved a point, so I shall leave the letters to universities and the temperature.
Cheers,
Jim
Ray Berrian
New Member
The error of Calvinism entered long before Jacob Arminius and his views and the Five Points of Calvinism.
The poison had already been poured into the church through John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion."
Chapter XXI OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHER TO DESTRUCTION.
Here is a quote from Calvin. 'All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation.'
Here is the error of Augustine that Calvin learned from this quasi-theologian.
What someone said about Arminianism being first and then the refutation of Calvinism that followed is true.
Consider the justice of God and the fact that the Lord favors no one in matter of their eternal salvation. [Romans 2:11 & Deuteronomy 10:17].
He died for all sinners [John 3:16 & Hebrews 2:9 & I Timothy 2:6].
Calvin never got his theological feet out of ancient Roman Catholicism and has left a trail of error even into this 21st century.
I am sure the Lord is thrilled with Calvin's doctrines that teach a "Limited Atonement" after He paid for the sins of all human beings [I John 2:2]. It surely must break the heart of the Lord knowing people still parrot this false doctrine.
The poison had already been poured into the church through John Calvin's "Institutes of the Christian Religion."
Chapter XXI OF THE ETERNAL ELECTION, BY WHICH GOD HAS PREDESTINATED SOME TO SALVATION, AND OTHER TO DESTRUCTION.
Here is a quote from Calvin. 'All are not created on equal terms, but some are preordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation.'
Here is the error of Augustine that Calvin learned from this quasi-theologian.
What someone said about Arminianism being first and then the refutation of Calvinism that followed is true.
Consider the justice of God and the fact that the Lord favors no one in matter of their eternal salvation. [Romans 2:11 & Deuteronomy 10:17].
He died for all sinners [John 3:16 & Hebrews 2:9 & I Timothy 2:6].
Calvin never got his theological feet out of ancient Roman Catholicism and has left a trail of error even into this 21st century.
I am sure the Lord is thrilled with Calvin's doctrines that teach a "Limited Atonement" after He paid for the sins of all human beings [I John 2:2]. It surely must break the heart of the Lord knowing people still parrot this false doctrine.
I agree with your "timeless", but today we are privileged to revelations which wasn't revealed to former generations,
Daniels book wasn't to be "UNSEALED" until the "LAST GENERATION".
Da 12:9 And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.
10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.
Satan may have put mankind on the "ROAD TO HELL", but in dying for the sins of the whole world,
Jesus erected a "barrier" (the Cross) across that road, so any who continues to hell will have to drive "OVER" that "Barrier".
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hi Dr Berrian,
Do you like history? If you could not tell by now let me just say, I LOVE history. Greek history is the paramount of all history in my book. Anyone that reads history will see a very disturbing and frustrating thing. History is written to tell the story in a bias form of the writer. At times it is very hard to see though this bias. Other times, it is very easy.
If you like Civil War History, you can go down south to see artifacts of the war or read books from the war wrote by someone from the south. Like wise, you can go to battlegrounds in the north and read other books on the war wrote by those that live in the north. If one does this, you would think there were 2 different wars.
I bring this up for you repeat again that Calvin was greatly influence by the Catholic Church. I will not argue this. We are all influence by our background. It just seems to me that your sources on Calvin are painting their bias into the report you read. If you were to read Calvin 1st hand, you may see that bias. Now, Calvin had somethings I do not agree with. But I'm sure of this. Calvin was with Luther, speaking out against The Catholic Church. The Catholic Church must have thought so too, for Calvin had to flee Paris because of his writings.
I read all this that I write and I feel like I'm lifting up Calvin. I do not think I have ever said so many things in defense of john Calvin. It is not my intent to do this, but rather to inform that there are a few things not right in your statements.
Bottom line…
I still call upon you to read 1st hand what he said and not others telling you what he said.
In Christ…James
Ray Berrian
New Member
I noticed no Calvinist wants to deal with what the two Greek scholars were saying on page 3.
I guess we must accept 'want to be' expositors of the Word of God rather than those who have studied the original language for years, as in Dean Alford and A.T. Robertson, both doctors of theology.
There work is to be listened to and respected. The Lord has placed them here for our understanding of His precious Word.
Repeating error no matter how many times you do it, still leaves you with incorrect thinking.
I guess we must accept 'want to be' expositors of the Word of God rather than those who have studied the original language for years, as in Dean Alford and A.T. Robertson, both doctors of theology.
There work is to be listened to and respected. The Lord has placed them here for our understanding of His precious Word.
Repeating error no matter how many times you do it, still leaves you with incorrect thinking.
Ray Berrian
New Member
As to '. . . and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed' in Acts 13:48,
Dr. A.T. Robertson, the Baptist Greek scholar has said,
'The subject of this verb is the relative clause. By no manner of legerdemain can it be made to mean "those who believe were appointed. It was saving faith that was exercised only by those--who were appointed unto eternal life, who were ranged on the side of eternal life, who were thus revealed as the subjects of God's grace by the stand that they took on this day for the Lord. It was a great day for the Kingdom of God.' (end quote from Dr. Robertson)
[My quote] As in this verse above so too in verse 46 the Jews by exercising their will, they put salvation away from their reach and thus made themselves unworthy to obtain God's gift of grace and eternal life.
Keep in mind that John Calvin's mentor, St. Augustine did not know one word of the Greek language. His forte was Latin. Augustine did not have the tools to interpret Scripture clearly and yet Calvin was willing to feed on his error [end quote].
"Ray"
Dr. A.T. Robertson, the Baptist Greek scholar has said,
'The subject of this verb is the relative clause. By no manner of legerdemain can it be made to mean "those who believe were appointed. It was saving faith that was exercised only by those--who were appointed unto eternal life, who were ranged on the side of eternal life, who were thus revealed as the subjects of God's grace by the stand that they took on this day for the Lord. It was a great day for the Kingdom of God.' (end quote from Dr. Robertson)
[My quote] As in this verse above so too in verse 46 the Jews by exercising their will, they put salvation away from their reach and thus made themselves unworthy to obtain God's gift of grace and eternal life.
Keep in mind that John Calvin's mentor, St. Augustine did not know one word of the Greek language. His forte was Latin. Augustine did not have the tools to interpret Scripture clearly and yet Calvin was willing to feed on his error [end quote].
"Ray"
Jarthur001
Active Member
Say what? man i missed this one. You better look again in your history book and see who it was that wrote the latin vulgate. Here is a clue...they called him the doctor
Jarthur001
Active Member
Hey Dr. Berrian,
I myself did not address the 2 greek guys...Dr. Henry Alford or Dr. Archibald Thomas Robertson for i thought this was posted in reply to someone else.
I'll give you my input. Alford was a great man as far as I can tell. As you have said, he mastered the greek of the NT. Was he the best? Who knows, but few could match him. He sent like 20 years on the NT...didn't he? Not sure of the number, but he had little help. On the side he had time to write a few hymns. I have a book by him somewhere. I read it like 20 years ago..and as I remember it, I liked it very much.
Robertson..i can not give the same praise to him, for i do not know him well. I have only heard his name a few times. Alford is quote over and over in the 52 volume "Pulpit Commentary" that most pastor have in their libary. Not sure i have ever seen Robertson quoted, but this alone does not mean he is no good. In fact, if you place him in the same arena as Alford i'll take your word for it and would say he is very good.
I'm not sure if this was what you were after..but this is a start. If you would like me to address one of their statements i will.
As to my Greek...I'm nothing.
Is Alford Greek better then calvin? i have no idea. You can say so..if you want. No big deal to me. But the truth is..it does not matter. Again...Calvins work is right or wrong. It stands on its own.
Here is a idea. Post a line that that Calvin used, and we will talk about it. This background stuff does not matter.
BTW..Jerome wrote the latin vulgate.
In Christ..James
I myself did not address the 2 greek guys...Dr. Henry Alford or Dr. Archibald Thomas Robertson for i thought this was posted in reply to someone else.
I'll give you my input. Alford was a great man as far as I can tell. As you have said, he mastered the greek of the NT. Was he the best? Who knows, but few could match him. He sent like 20 years on the NT...didn't he? Not sure of the number, but he had little help. On the side he had time to write a few hymns. I have a book by him somewhere. I read it like 20 years ago..and as I remember it, I liked it very much.
Robertson..i can not give the same praise to him, for i do not know him well. I have only heard his name a few times. Alford is quote over and over in the 52 volume "Pulpit Commentary" that most pastor have in their libary. Not sure i have ever seen Robertson quoted, but this alone does not mean he is no good. In fact, if you place him in the same arena as Alford i'll take your word for it and would say he is very good.
I'm not sure if this was what you were after..but this is a start. If you would like me to address one of their statements i will.
As to my Greek...I'm nothing.
Is Alford Greek better then calvin? i have no idea. You can say so..if you want. No big deal to me. But the truth is..it does not matter. Again...Calvins work is right or wrong. It stands on its own.
Here is a idea. Post a line that that Calvin used, and we will talk about it. This background stuff does not matter.
BTW..Jerome wrote the latin vulgate.
In Christ..James
Ray Berrian
New Member
Jarthur001,
Go check Augustine and Jerome as to when they lived.
Jerome lived A.D. 340-420.
Augustine lived in A.D. 354-430. They were contemporaries.
Jerome, the writer of the Vulgate was in 'lock step' with Augustine the early founders of the Roman Catholic Church.
Dr. Earle E. Cairns, Ph.D. says in his book, "Christianity Through The Centuries" copyrighted 1954 on page 155 says,
'Jerome's greatest work was a Latin translation of the Bible known as the Vulgate . . . . Jerome's version of the Bible has been widely used by the Western Church and has been, until recently, the only official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church since the Council of Trent.'
Also, as to Jerome---Dr. Cairns says,
'He wrote to Damasus (a man) in which he categorically states that the chair of Peter is the Rock on which the Church was built.'
I could give you more data but this will work.
Augustine and Jerome worked together to bring about theological views that are contrary to the Word of God in many cases.
Dr. R.C. Sproul, as has been pointed out before, himself being a Calvinist declares a linkage between Augustine and John Calvin. Keep in mind he is one of your own Calvinists who said that and not me.
Maybe with some help from another person you will figure out what I was saying in my previous post that you did not care for at all.
Go check Augustine and Jerome as to when they lived.
Jerome lived A.D. 340-420.
Augustine lived in A.D. 354-430. They were contemporaries.
Jerome, the writer of the Vulgate was in 'lock step' with Augustine the early founders of the Roman Catholic Church.
Dr. Earle E. Cairns, Ph.D. says in his book, "Christianity Through The Centuries" copyrighted 1954 on page 155 says,
'Jerome's greatest work was a Latin translation of the Bible known as the Vulgate . . . . Jerome's version of the Bible has been widely used by the Western Church and has been, until recently, the only official Bible of the Roman Catholic Church since the Council of Trent.'
Also, as to Jerome---Dr. Cairns says,
'He wrote to Damasus (a man) in which he categorically states that the chair of Peter is the Rock on which the Church was built.'
I could give you more data but this will work.
Augustine and Jerome worked together to bring about theological views that are contrary to the Word of God in many cases.
Dr. R.C. Sproul, as has been pointed out before, himself being a Calvinist declares a linkage between Augustine and John Calvin. Keep in mind he is one of your own Calvinists who said that and not me.
Maybe with some help from another person you will figure out what I was saying in my previous post that you did not care for at all.
Jarthur001
Active Member
Dr Berrian,
YOU said..Augustine wrote the Vulgate..
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1601/4.html#000054
that is not true. Jerome wrote it..yes..this is what i said.
You said...
*****************
Dr. R.C. Sproul, as has been pointed out before, himself being a Calvinist declares a linkage between Augustine and John Calvin. Keep in mind he is one of your own Calvinists who said that and not me.
*****************
Calvin did study Augustine..i have said this...i also say big deal. I do not deny it.
This is your claim...
Do not listen to Calvin, because he read and study Augustine..who live at the same time as jerome...who wrote the Latin Vulgate. I say..so what?
To follow that logic...do not read paul..for paul killed many. that is wrong too ray.
Pauls work stands on its own.
Calvins work stands on its own.
This is silly logic.
*************************
You have shown over and over you do not know history. Sorry..but i think you may want to stop trying till you know what you are talking about.
you posted this..
***********************
Jerome, the writer of the Vulgate was in 'lock step' with Augustine the early founders of the Roman Catholic Church.
********************
lock-step? hummm
1st..back then it was only called the Catholic Church. The roman part had not been added. This was about 20-30 years after the Catholic Church was intact. The Church has always had something to deal with, but as a whole the church in that age was not that bad. This was after the council of Nicea and for the most part a good time in the church.
But..even if it was a bad time..would it matter?
Calvins writings stand on their own..right?
2nd..read this letter from Augustine to Jerome.
"I pray you not to devote your energies to translateing the sacred books to latin, unless you do as you did earlier in your translation of the book of job, that is, adding notes that show clearly where your version differs from the Septuagint, whose authority has no equal..( Septuagint? Is that not greek? It looks like Brother Augustine did know greek after all)....(skipping some of the letter)...Besides, I cannot imagine how, after so long, someone can find in the Hebrew manuscripts anything which so many translators did not see before, especially since they knew Hebrew so well."
Now bare in mind Jerome was a hothead...so this letter ticked him off. As it turns out ray...these guys were not good buds.
But still....it does not matter...does it?
Calvins work stands on its own.
As to Augustine's time with the Manichees..this was before he was saved. His 1st writings were to refute the Manichees.
But still....it does not matter...now does it. As it turns out...we were all once lost sinners before coming to Christ.
As sinners..we sin
In Christ..James
YOU said..Augustine wrote the Vulgate..
http://www.baptistboard.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php/topic/35/1601/4.html#000054
that is not true. Jerome wrote it..yes..this is what i said.
You said...
*****************
Dr. R.C. Sproul, as has been pointed out before, himself being a Calvinist declares a linkage between Augustine and John Calvin. Keep in mind he is one of your own Calvinists who said that and not me.
*****************
Calvin did study Augustine..i have said this...i also say big deal. I do not deny it.
This is your claim...
Do not listen to Calvin, because he read and study Augustine..who live at the same time as jerome...who wrote the Latin Vulgate. I say..so what?
To follow that logic...do not read paul..for paul killed many. that is wrong too ray.
Pauls work stands on its own.
Calvins work stands on its own.
This is silly logic.
*************************
You have shown over and over you do not know history. Sorry..but i think you may want to stop trying till you know what you are talking about.
you posted this..
***********************
Jerome, the writer of the Vulgate was in 'lock step' with Augustine the early founders of the Roman Catholic Church.
********************
lock-step? hummm
1st..back then it was only called the Catholic Church. The roman part had not been added. This was about 20-30 years after the Catholic Church was intact. The Church has always had something to deal with, but as a whole the church in that age was not that bad. This was after the council of Nicea and for the most part a good time in the church.
But..even if it was a bad time..would it matter?
Calvins writings stand on their own..right?
2nd..read this letter from Augustine to Jerome.
"I pray you not to devote your energies to translateing the sacred books to latin, unless you do as you did earlier in your translation of the book of job, that is, adding notes that show clearly where your version differs from the Septuagint, whose authority has no equal..( Septuagint? Is that not greek? It looks like Brother Augustine did know greek after all)....(skipping some of the letter)...Besides, I cannot imagine how, after so long, someone can find in the Hebrew manuscripts anything which so many translators did not see before, especially since they knew Hebrew so well."
Now bare in mind Jerome was a hothead...so this letter ticked him off. As it turns out ray...these guys were not good buds.
But still....it does not matter...does it?
Calvins work stands on its own.
As to Augustine's time with the Manichees..this was before he was saved. His 1st writings were to refute the Manichees.
But still....it does not matter...now does it. As it turns out...we were all once lost sinners before coming to Christ.
As sinners..we sin
In Christ..James