FIVE POINT ARMINIAN

[dale kesterson]

Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon, "There are some professing Christians who can speak of themselves in terms of admiration; but, from my inmost heart, I loathe such speeches more and more every day that I live. Those who talk in such a boastful fashion must be constituted very differently from me. While they are congratulating themselves, I have to lie humbly at the foot of Christ's Cross, and marvel that I am saved at all, for I know that I am saved. I have to wonder that I do not believe Christ more, and equally wonder that I am privileged to believe in Him at all-to wonder that I do not love Him more, and equally to wonder that I love Him at all-to wonder that I am not holier, and equally to wonder that I have any desire to be holy at all considering what a polluted debased, depraved nature I find still within my soul, notwithstanding all that divine grace has done in me. If God were ever to allow the fountains of the great deeps of depravity to break up in the best man that lives, he would make as bad a devil as the devil himself is. I care nothing for what these boasters say concerning their own perfections; I feel sure that they do not know themselves, or they could not talk as they often do. There is tinder enough in the saint who is nearest to heaven to kindle another hell if God should but permit a spark to fall upon it. In the very best of men there is an infernal and well-nigh infinite depth of depravity. Some Christians never seem to find this out. I almost wish that they might not do so, for it is a painful discovery for anyone to make; but it has the beneficial effect of making us cease from trusting in ourselves, and causing us to glory only in the Lord."

Some people who think so highly of themselves should take heed at these words.

 

[Brother James]

Thanks for posting that brother. I admit I had to wipe the tears away has I read it.

 

[Me4Him]

Said the prince of preachers CH Spurgeon

And yet some deny that that "infinite LOVE" to "ONE" is not extended to "ALL".

Some people who think so highly of themselves should take heed at these words.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Whatever,

If you investigate the word 'ordained' in Strong's Concordance you will find many references to 'ordained' but with different shades of meaning.

So also the word in Acts 13:48. Dr. Robertson, the Greek scholar explains the word ordained to mean person who were inclined toward or disposed toward believing in Jesus unto salvation.

A students of the Word have to watch and notice that sometimes the KJV does not give a perfect explanation of what God is saying, though I study from the KJV myself.

Have fun 'Whatever' and look up the word ordained.

The KJV says in I John 3:9 that the Christian does not 'commit' sin, when the Greek uses the word, 'poiown' meaning to pratice sinning in the aorist active tense, if I remember correctly.

Because the 'seed' the Holy Spirit abides in the Christian he or she is not able to keep on practicing sinning.

If a person continue to practice sinning he or she was never saved ever.

That is why people need to study the Greek so the scholars like Dr. Robertson can explain the shades of meaning to us.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Whatever,


That is why people need to study the Greek so the scholars like Dr. Robertson can explain the shades of meaning to us.

People need to let the "SPIRIT" teach them, that's why the "HOLY GHOST" was "SENT", to lead/guide in "ALL TRUTH".

We all sin after being saved, but a saved person "REPENTS" of the sin they commit, while a sinner takes "pleasure" in their sin.

Satan's deception is so "Subtil" he'll tell you 99.99% truth, but a little leaven, leaven the whole, the "Natural man" doesn't recognize the "Subtility" of Satan, but the "SPIRIT OF TRUTH" will "RIGHTLY DIVIDE" the words that are of "TRUTH" and "Leaven".

1Jo 2:27 But the anointing (Holy Ghost) which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Me4Him,

Your post was all correct. I agree.

This gives no reason to be lazy in study or in trying to understand what Greek scholars are telling us. They are placed in their ministry to help Christians understand all of the truth.

Understand, the disciples understood the language of the N.T. Most Americans do not understand the original languages of the Bible.

Ray

 

[whatever]

Ray,

I found this in Barnes' Notes (the e-sword version). I would be interested in hearing your comments on what Barnes says, and how how we should decide which experts to believe.

And as many as were ordained - ὅσοι ἦσαν τεταγμένοι hosoi ēsan tetagmenoi. Syriac, “Who were destined,” or constituted. Vulgate, “As many as were foreordained (quotquot erant praeordinati) to eternal life believed.” There has been much difference of opinion in regard to this expression. One class of commentators has supposed that it refers to the doctrine of election - to God’s ordaining people to eternal life, and another class to their being disposed themselves to embrace the gospel - to those among them who did not reject and despise the gospel, but who were disposed and inclined to embrace it. The main inquiry is, what is the meaning of the word rendered “ordained”? The word is used only eight times in the New Testament: Mat_28:16, “Into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them”; that is, previously appointed - before his death; Luk_7:8, “For I also am a man set under authority”; appointed, or designated as a soldier, to be under the authority of another; Act_15:2, “They determined that Paul and Barnabas, etc., should go to Jerusalem”; Act_22:10, “It shall be told thee of all things which are appointed for thee to do”; Act_23:23, “And when they appointed him a day,” etc.: Rom_13:1, “the powers that be are ordained of God; 1Co_16:15, They have addicted themselves to the ministry of saints.” The word τάσσω tassō, properly means “to place” - that is, to place in a certain rank or order. Its meaning is derived from arranging or disposing a body of soldiers in regular military order. In the places which have been mentioned above, the word is used to denote the following things:

(1) To command, or to designate, Mat_28:16; Act_22:10; Act_28:23.

(2) to institute, constitute, or appoint, Rom_13:1; compare 2Sa_8:11; 1Sa_22:7.

(3) to determine, to take counsel, to resolve, Act_15:2.

(4) to subject to the authority of another, Luk_7:8.

(5) to addict to; to devote to, 1Co_16:15.

The meaning may be thus expressed:

(1) The word is never used to denote an internal disposition or inclination arising from one’s own self. It does not mean that they disposed themselves to embrace eternal life.

(2) it has uniformly the notion of an ordering, disposing, or arranging from without; that is, from some other source than the individual himself; as of a soldier, who is arranged or classified according to the will of the proper officer. In relation to these persons it means, therefore, that they were disposed or inclined to this from some other source than themselves.

(3) it does not properly refer to an eternal decree, or directly to the doctrine of election - though that may be inferred from it; but it refers to their being then in fact disposed to embrace eternal life. They were then inclined by an influence from without themselves, or so disposed as to embrace eternal life. That this was done by the influence of the Holy Spirit is clear from all parts of the New Testament, Tit_3:5-6; Joh_1:13. It was not a disposition or arrangement originating with themselves, but with God.

(4) this implies the doctrine of election. It was, in fact, that doctrine expressed in an act. It was nothing but God’s disposing them to embrace eternal life. And that he does this according to a plan in his own mind a plan which is unchangeable as he himself is unchangeable is clear from the Scriptures. Compare Act_18:10; Rom_8:28-30; Rom_9:15-16, Rom_9:21, Rom_9:23; Eph_1:4-5, Eph_1:11. The meaning may be expressed in few words - who were then disposed, and in good earnest determined, to embrace eternal life, by the operation of the grace of God upon their hearts.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Whatever,

People who have been bought up in a particular denomination will be more inclined to accept a teaching that they learned long ago.

The key thing is to keep an open mind and ask the Lord to reveal His truth to you.

Question all teachers and make sure they are staying within the realm of truth.

All things must remain in balance. God is God of love toward sinners, He is God of Justice, He is God of mercy. Search and find out what Scripture says in its purest interpretation. Look at things from all angles and God the Spirit will lead us into all truth as is cited in I John 2:27. Every true Christian has the inner 'anointing.' Also, John 14:26 . . .

I grew up as a 5 point Arminian, but in Bible College I fought against the security of the believer until I yielded to the Spirit of God as to what the Lord had to say rather than my early instruction. If you consider Eternal Security the fifth point of Calvinism, then I am a one point Calvinist.

Now I know some will say the 5th. point is "Perseverence of the Saints" and not "Eternal Security."

I had to be open and willing to adjust and change in order to rightly divide the Word of truth. Most people are unwilling to look at all aspects as to what other people have said to the church. When men of God can do this, only then will they be able to teach and preach with utter confidence.

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Whatever,

People who have been bought up in a particular denomination will be more inclined to accept a teaching that they learned long ago.

The key thing is to keep an open mind and ask the Lord to reveal His truth to you.

Question all teachers and make sure they are staying within the realm of truth.

All things must remain in balance. God is God of love toward sinners, He is God of Justice, He is God of mercy. Search and find out what Scripture says in its purest interpretation. Look at things from all angles and God the Spirit will lead us into all truth as is cited in I John 2:27. Every true Christian has the inner 'anointing.' Also, John 14:26 . . .

I grew up as a 5 point Arminian, but in Bible College I fought against the security of the believer until I yielded to the Spirit of God as to what the Lord had to say rather than my early instruction. If you consider Eternal Security the fifth point of Calvinism, then I am a one point Calvinist.

Now I know some will say the 5th. point is "Perseverence of the Saints" and not "Eternal Security."

I had to be open and willing to adjust and change in order to rightly divide the Word of truth. Most people are unwilling to look at all aspects as to what other people have said to the church. When men of God can do this, only then will they be able to teach and preach with utter confidence.

I never heard/knew "Calvin/Arminian" existed when I was growing up, and I grew up in a Baptist church, but that isn't the reason I'm still a "baptist".

I'm a Baptist because they believe what I believe,

not because I believe what they believe.

This is "MY SOUL" we're talking about, and "MY SOUL" comes before any denomination/doctrine.

I couldn't care less about Calvin/Arminian or any other doctrine, unless it matches what the "SPIRIT" teaches, it isn't worth the ink/paper used to record it.

Like the Antichrist, everything that looks/acts/talks like God, is not God, and that's the spirit many are following today.

People better let Calvin/Arminian go and get "HUMBLE" enough to forget all they've learned, confess to God they're "IDIOTS" and need the "HOLY GHOST" to teach them.

Their "SOULS" might be hanging in the balance.

 

[Ray Berrian]

Me4Him,

Excellent post!

Ray

 

[2BHizown]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />

This is "MY SOUL" we're talking about, and "MY SOUL" comes before any denomination/doctrine.

[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Well, this is definitely Armenian!
No Calvinist would say such a thing as they primarily believe as stated in the bible that all people are God's property. Ps 24:1 "Calvinism"(as Spurgeon clearly defines it) is just a nickname for biblical doctrine! It is fully God honoring, acknowledging His sovereignty as owner, creator, judge, sustainer, maintainer of our soul and everything else in His universe! We own nothing, including and especially our soul! We are by His grace, totally and thankfully His!
Blessings.Eph 2:10 "We are His workmanship"

 

[Jarthur001]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
I never heard/knew "Calvin/Arminian" existed when I was growing up, and I grew up in a Baptist church, but that isn't the reason I'm still a "baptist".

I'm a Baptist because they believe what I believe,

not because I believe what they believe.

This is "MY SOUL" we're talking about, and "MY SOUL" comes before any denomination/doctrine.

I couldn't care less about Calvin/Arminian or any other doctrine, unless it matches what the "SPIRIT" teaches, it isn't worth the ink/paper used to record it.

Like the Antichrist, everything that looks/acts/talks like God, is not God, and that's the spirit many are following today.

People better let Calvin/Arminian go and get "HUMBLE" enough to forget all they've learned, confess to God they're "IDIOTS" and need the "HOLY GHOST" to teach them.

Their "SOULS" might be hanging in the balance.

Me4Him,

I agree with Ray, very good post. I also agree with Ray that ALL must study the Word. All must use any tools they can, any education they have, pull from all wise men, as they look for the face of God, using only Gods word as non-changing ground. You need to stay away from "mans" doctrine and use only Gods Word as your base....yet learn from others that have study before you. You can try to stay away from the C/A debate. Yet in your studies you will find that this subject is so vast and the very heart of the doctrine of salvation that you can not. Now you do not have to come to this debate forum and post. But you will find yourself leaning one way or the other. There are 5 points on both sides...yet it always comes down to this one point....

1)Freewill of man to come and go as he wishes to the Almighty God.
or
2) God is in control of all salvation.

You will notice this is 90% of all the words on this BB. We do talk about other things...but even at the base of this you will see hints of the point made above.


Arminianist will say..."WHY WOULD GOD FORCE?
Force salvation..
Force sinners into hell
Force the saved to stay saved if they do not want to be saved any more.

NO MAN MUST HAVE...responsibility
Say no to salvation...
Say no to hell and come to God on their own...
Say no..i want out of this deal with God.

************
Calvinist will CRY...NO ITS ABOUT GOD...God is in control.

God draws.....
God saves......
God Keeps......

Man is DEAD and will never come on his own.
**************
Now I know this is not new to you. I'm saying when we study salvation, we will have to take one side or the other. Salvation is by God and God alone....or God waits on Man to choose...making man in control.

God is in control
Man is in control

what will it be?

In Christ...James

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by Jarthur001:
Me4Him,

I agree with Ray, very good post. I also agree with Ray that ALL must study the Word. All must use any tools they can, any education they have, pull from all wise men, as they look for the face of God, using only Gods word as non-changing ground. You need to stay away from "mans" doctrine and use only Gods Word as your base....yet learn from others that have study before you. You can try to stay away from the C/A debate. Yet in your studies you will find that this subject is so vast and the very heart of the doctrine of salvation that you can not. Now you do not have to come to this debate forum and post. But you will find yourself leaning one way or the other. There are 5 points on both sides...yet it always comes down to this one point....

1)Freewill of man to come and go as he wishes to the Almighty God.
or
2) God is in control of all salvation.


In Christ...James [/QB]

Salvation is as complete as the "condemnation", all have sinned, and salvation is offer to all, where sin abounds, "GRACE" abounds "EVEN MORE", evidently some don't understand that.

Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, but there is another "SACRIFICE" that must be made before his sacrifice will cover the person, and that is the person must be "WILLING" to sacrifice the "OLD MAN" of Flesh if He wants Jesus's salvation.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

When we are "WILLING" to "sacrifice" the "LIFE" flesh wants to live for a "LIFE" led by the "SPIRIT", then, and only then, will Jesus's sacrifice cover our sins.

Ro 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit.

Many are called, but aren't willing to sacifice to "old man", only thse who are, are "Chosen".

"LOVE" is the "FREE EXPRESSION" of the "HEART", God could have "programmed everyone" to be saved, but then "LOVE" could not have existed, "IN HEAVEN".

"GRACE IS LOVE", and the same way "GOD'S GRACE" is by "HIS CHOICE" to "US", we too have the "CHOICE" to show/withhold our "GRACE", depending on whether or not we're willing to "Sacrifice the old man".

If God predestine some to hell, then he would not have "Repented" for making man.

Ge 6:6 And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Calvin's doctrine doesn't match scripture.

 

[TomMann]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, but there is another "SACRIFICE" that must be made before his sacrifice will cover the person, and that is the person must be "WILLING" to sacrifice the "OLD MAN" of Flesh if He wants Jesus's salvation.

Do you realize what you are saying????????

 

[Ray Berrian]

Me4Him,

I think I understand what you mean in your post.

Jesus died for the sins of all sinners [I John 2:2] and yet that sinner must be willing to give up his sin with the aid of the Spirit of God if he wants to be saved. Only those who receive Jesus received His atonement which cleanses away our sins [I John 1:9].

I do not see anything out of line with your explanation. Now if you believe in Divine puppeteering of human sinners then what you said might seem incorrect.

Ray

 

[Me4Him]

Originally posted by TomMann:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Me4Him:
Jesus died for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD, but there is another "SACRIFICE" that must be made before his sacrifice will cover the person, and that is the person must be "WILLING" to sacrifice the "OLD MAN" of Flesh if He wants Jesus's salvation.

Do you realize what you are saying???????? </font>[/QUOTE]Yep, teaching doctrine that most have walked away from, and teaching the doctrine/traditions of men, rather than God.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

God isn't the only one who must "MAKE A CALL".

IF you're not "WILLING" to drank of "Jesus's cup", "die for salvation", (old man) you can't/won't be saved.


Ro 10:9 That IF
thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus,

and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,

thou shalt be saved.


Anyone who "BEEN SAVED" will "KNOW" what it required for them to "BE SAVED".

Anyone who "Believes" they were saved because of "predestination", had better take another look at their supposely, "Salvation".

I'd bet they also teach that God forgives sin??

He doesn't, the wages of sin is "DEATH", not "forgiveness", If God forgave sin, then Jesus died for nothing.

1Co 6:20 For ye are bought with a price:

Sin is a debt that will be paid to the "last mite", no exception, even for Jesus.

A little leaven in man's doctrine is all it takes to leaven the "WHOLE".

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by Me4Him:
Anyone who "Believes" they were saved because of "predestination", had better take another look at their supposely, "Salvation".

Calvinists do not believe this. Anyone who says they do had better take another look at Calvinism.

Originally posted by Me4Him:
I'd bet they also teach that God forgives sin??

He doesn't, the wages of sin is "DEATH", not "forgiveness", If God forgave sin, then Jesus died for nothing.

Acts 5:29-32 says "But Peter and the apostles answered, 'We must obey God rather than men. The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree. God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins. And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.'"

It appears that in your attempt to strain out a gnat you have swallowed a camel.

 

[TomMann]

Once again Ray I posed a simple question to the poster.... No other comment... Just a question that may cause him to think of what he has just said....

I understand that people bounce back and forth between posts here... and sometime get hurried or frustrated.. and sometimes what gets posted isn't exactally what was meant...

And I think that you, Ray, understand my point and understand it is valid or you would not have had to add the part about Divine Puppeteering to put the focus back on me and off what was asked...

 

[Ray Berrian]

TomMann,

I do not think we have ever met. How would I know you were a Calvinist? Maybe your are not one. If you are you believe that God is a Divine manipulator. This concept does not fit into our Lord's words offered in John 5:40 and mega other verses in the New and Old covenants.

 

[TomMann]

Aside from the C/A debate.... I was rather startled to hear it implied that Christ's sacrifice was not in and of itself sufficient for my salvation. That a second sacrifice was required on my part... this is foreign to me....