Flag Burning

Do you have a problem with someone protesting or dissenting against government policies?

Is being listened to necessary in order to say something?

Have you read the U.S. constitution and the Bill of Rights?

 

What I want to know is why should I be worried about what someone does to a flag when I can walk into a movie theater and watch the name of God be blasphemed on the silver screen... why should a scrap of cloth in the fashion of the flag of the US be more sacred to me than the name of my God? Where is the constitutional amendment against blasphemy?

 

And for that matter, they might decide the same for anyone caught using a cute doggie as an avatar?? (btw, I use 'NiteShift' because I work...night shift).

Granted, the majority can be wrong, and can ignore minority opinion. It's a matter of balance you know. But when the high court routinely thwarts the will of the majority then we have problems. We shouldn't need to be talking about a contitutional amendment to do what the majority clearly wants regarding flag protection.

And how they decided that burning objects on public streets is protected 'speech' is a study in pretzel logic.

 

Not really, because, as mentioned before, burning the flag is an accepted and respectful way of disposing of a torn or tattered flag. The only difference between respectfully burning the flag and disrespectfully burning it is intent, thus it becomes "speech".

 

Not only is vocalizing words "speech", but speech in the context of the Constitution is a word for expression. Are written words literally speech? No, obviously not, but they still express an idea. So do action that protest constitute speech.

 

Well that is not the only difference. Protestors who burn the flag do not come to attention, do not salute the flag, and do not burn it in a private ceremony.

But you are correct, the main difference is the disrespectful manner in which it is burned. And of course that is exactly what most Americans object to. Though I think that a bunch of yahoos standing the middle of the road and burning umbrellas, for example should also be arrested.

 

Having a country where civil liberties respected means allowing people to protest, such as burning the flag, that makes your stomach curl. In order to be a country that truly respects civil liberties means that non-violent forms of protest must be allowed - whether we approve of them or not.

 

If the amendment to outlaw burning the flag is not passed by Congress or not ratified by the states, then anyone who doesn't like that can burn the flag in protest. After all, we only want the country to respect itself and its symbols as we do, but if it proves to be unworthy of respect in such a way, we can express our disrespect thereof. We learned in school, didn't we, that we have to like ourselves if we want anyone else to like us? If that's relly rubbish, then also consider flag-burning a protest against that evil public school lesson.

 

Protestors managed just fine before 1989, when the court decided that flag-burning must be allowed, and that state laws prohibiting it were un-constitutional. Neither the 1st or 14th Amendments says anything about flag burning, symbolic speech, or expressive conduct.

 

The federal constitution is about limiting the powers of the federal government, not the rights of the citizens, NiteShift.

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

 

It's also not about bullying state governments, or inventing new rights.

 

They managed fine by getting arrested. I strongly suspect that the flag-burning lost popularity after it was judged legal.

Broadly speaking, the 1st & 14th do. They don't specifically say that you can write letters to the editor disagreeing with your senator either, do they?

 

Did the first 10 amendments invent "new" rights? How about other, such as female suffrage? Voting for citizens under 21?

 

Tell ya what, NiteShift, if you can get 2/3's of the U.S. House of Representatives and 2/3's of the U.S. Senate and 38 states to go along with your idea of banning the burning of the flag as a protest, then you can most certainly prevent it from happening - at least legally.

 

While we're on the subject of the flag, I came across this from the usflag.org website (which in turn got it from the USAF Academy).

It takes 12 folds to properly fold the flag. According to them, this is what each fold represents:

The first fold of our flag is a symbol of life.

The second fold is a symbol of our belief in the eternal life.

The third fold is made in honor and remembrance of the veteran departing our ranks who gave a portion of life for the defense of our country to attain a peace throughout the world.

The fourth fold represents our weaker nature, for as American citizens trusting in God, it is to Him we turn in times of peace as well as in times of war for His divine guidance.

The fifth fold is a tribute to our country, for in the words of Stephen Decatur, "Our country, in dealing with other countries, may she always be right; but it is still our country, right or wrong."

The sixth fold is for where our hearts lie. It is with our heart that we pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

The seventh fold is a tribute to our Armed Forces, for it is through our Armed Forces that we protect our country and our flag against all her enemies, whether they be found within or without the boundaries of our republic.

The eighth fold is a tribute to the one who entered the valley of the shadow of death, that we might see the light of day, and to honor mother, for whom it flies on mother's day.

The ninth fold is a tribute to womanhood; for it has been through their faith, love, loyalty and devotion that the character of the men and women who have made this country great have been molded.

The tenth fold is a tribute to father, for he, too, has given his sons and daughters for the defense of our country since they were first born.

The eleventh fold, in the eyes of a Hebrew citizen, represents the lower portion of the seal of King David and King Solomon, and glorifies in their eyes, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

The twelfth fold, in the eyes of a Christian citizen, represents an emblem of eternity and glorifies in their eyes, God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost.

When the flag is completely folded, the stars are uppermost, reminding us of our national motto, "In God we Trust."

 

What you are calling 'speech' Daisy is actually a gesture. In the UCMJ we have an article against provoking speeches and gestures that covers this, but hey that is only because the Congress decided a long time ago that US military needed to be held at a more stringent standard than regular citizens.

Intent has zero to do with it. Youre kind of perverting the language of the law.

As for the flag, all laws concerning the display and destruction of the flag of the United States of America can be found here http://www.usflag.org/uscode36.html

I find the possibility of a law to ban the burning of the flag hard to imagine in it's regulation. We would need an entire flag burning police dept to enforce it.

Our country is more than just a flag flapping in the breeze. You can burn it and our freedom still stands.

We arrested a guy four years ago for burning a flag, but he did climb to the top of our flagpole and take it down to set it on fire. It simply wasnt his to do that with.

 

Obviously a retrofitted meaning to folding the flag, since the National Motto was "E Pluribus Unum" until "IGWT" was added in the 1950s, and "One nation, under God" during the same era. This is the same Air Force Academy that has gotten into trouble for its blatant Christian proselytizing of cadets. I am all for sharing the gospel on a one-to-one, person-to-person basis. Not a government institution like the United States Air Force Academy doing it for us.

I strongly suspect this meaning has no official standing. Probably written by a chaplain.

<snip>

 

That compels me to think that, as I have been responsbile for raising and lowering the US flag, the state flag, and our company flag we have been told the company could be fined for not taking the (US) flag down before 'sunset' (no lighting on poles), for not taking it down in rain or in winds that may damage it, or for displaying it "improperly" (not at half-staff on days ordered, frayed, upside down,...). So, is it perfectly legal to burn a US flag in defiance of the country it represents, but what I mentioned is subject to legal penalty?

 

I have no problem with the burning of the American flag being made a criminal offense.

It's like the T-shirt I used to have said, "Sure, you can burn the flag... as long as you wrap your sorry [hide] in it first."