Flaws of Arminianism

[Van]

SNIP

Is there among Baptists, in your opinion, a teaching that men have enough ability on their own, that upon hearing the gospel, they can respond correctly and come to a saving faith in Christ without any other action being necessary by the Holy Spirit? Does the total work on God's side of things on our behalf involve Christ's death and resurrection and the setting up of the framework whereby we are now free to come to Christ and that all the ability on our part that we need is given to us in creation?

1) Did anyone say people have the ability to respond to the gospel "correctly?" How about if the lost respond incorrectly but God credits their flawed faith as righteousness?

2) Did anyone say people come to "saving faith?" Or do people come to faith in Christ and God chooses to credit some of those faiths as righteousness?

3) Does "God's work" on our behalf involve:
a) Christ's death? Yes
b) Christ's resurrection? Yes
c) Setting up a "framework whereby we are now free to come to Christ? Nope
d) Is all the spiritual ability we need to trust in Christ given to us as humans? Yes

Can anyone "come to Christ" unless allowed by God? Nope
Can anyone come to Christ unless drawn by the Father? Nope
Can anyone come to Christ unless they have heard and learned from the Father? Nope

 

[Van]

Remove "corporate election" for that is not taught in Scripture.
SNIP
... you are making faith of some innate human ability expressed sufficiently and of certain quality to garner God's attention in which He may or may not credit sufficiently in Christ as righteousness.... SNIP

Once again a Calvinist misrepresents my expressed views!!

The Election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate. The election cannot be individual because we lived not as a chosen people who had not received mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Faith - putting our trust and belief in something - is a human ability. Note the dozen or more verses that refer to humans having faith, such as "your faith has saved you." Or God credited Abraham's faith. Or how about "you of little faith?" On and on folks, on and on.

Did anyone say our faith is sufficient to merit salvation? Nope. Salvation does not even depend on the person who wills or does things to be saved, but upon God alone. Romans 9:16

As far as the idiotic "garner God's attention" it is as if it is a denial of God's omnipresence and omniscience. Good grief...

 

[DaveXR650]

2) Did anyone say people come to "saving faith?" Or do people come to faith in Christ and God chooses to credit some of those faiths as righteousness?

"credit some of those faiths as righteousness" I have never heard anyone put it like that.

d) Is all the spiritual ability we need to trust in Christ given to us as humans? Yes

This is what I'm getting at. That is called a semi-Pelagian position. It is common among American Baptists and the old revivalist preachers like Charles Finney. No, I don't agree with it but it is very popular. What confuses me is your next points:

Can anyone "come to Christ" unless allowed by God? Nope
Can anyone come to Christ unless drawn by the Father? Nope
Can anyone come to Christ unless they have heard and learned from the Father? Nope

They seem to contradict the point you made above. Especially point 2. If you can't come unless you're drawn by the Father then all the spiritual ability you need was not given to you as a human. This would be an Arminian or Calvinist position. Now you can go on a rant about how you're being misrepresented or you can begin a civil discussion. But I'm willing to bet what it will be. Let's see.

 

[DaveXR650]

1) Did anyone say people have the ability to respond to the gospel "correctly?"

d) Is all the spiritual ability we need to trust in Christ given to us as humans? Yes

I'm sorry Van it just sounds like you are contradicting yourself here too.

 

[agedman]

Once again a Calvinist misrepresents my expressed views!!

The Election of Ephesians 1:4 is corporate. The election cannot be individual because we lived not as a chosen people who had not received mercy. 1 Peter 2:9-10.

You see corporate election in these passages because your own bias obliges you to see corporate election.

But there is not corporate election found in scriptures, but individual election that builds the corporate.

Faith - putting our trust and belief in something - is a human ability. Note the dozen or more verses that refer to humans having faith, such as "your faith has saved you." Or God credited Abraham's faith. Or how about "you of little faith?" On and on folks, on and on.

Human hope so faith is as frail as my health.

What faith is given by God is everlasting assured substance with evidence of realized hope, and such cannot be found as innate in humans.

"Our" faith is that which God gives personally to each believer according to the purpose in which He has appointed. It is "our" faith not from innate source of fallen human, but because we are endowed, empowered, authorized to become His adopted child (John 1).

Did anyone say our faith is sufficient to merit salvation? Nope. Salvation does not even depend on the person who wills or does things to be saved, but upon God alone. Romans 9:16

You did. You deny your own presentation, again?

As far as the idiotic "garner God's attention" it is as if it is a denial of God's omnipresence and omniscience. Good grief...

Then You deny your own words, again.

Why don't you merely present a recantation of your view errors rather then trying to hedge your thinking in a cloud of northern lights?

In multiple threads you have brought up this topic of one must express their own faith and that when God's examination of such effort meets His approval He will then credit that effort and place that one into Christ.

Did you change your mind and view?


There is always hope that you did!

 

[DaveXR650]

1) Stop denial of your posted statements! You said, and I quote from your post #3, "you mean that people are sinners only by deeds? But that there is nothing wrong with us in our own actual condition? We are created with a neutral mindset towards God?
Did I say any of that hogwash? Nope. So your questions implied false views had been taken by me.

Sorry I missed this - there was rapid posting going on. I posted it and am quoting it so you can see I'm not denying what I post. When you say that all the spiritual ability we need is given to us as humans I take that to mean that you believe there is nothing wrong with us in our own actual condition. If that's not what you mean then just say so, don't go on a rant. If your spiritual condition is not lacking any ability you need to come to Christ then I was assuming you meant that we are sinners only in that we have sinned - but are not spiritually impaired beyond that. So I said "you mean we are only sinners by deeds". In other words, even though we have sinned, which we all agree on, I was asking if you believed that in a spiritual sense we are neutral towards God, not alienated or with a bent towards hostility towards God in our natural state. Sorry, but in light of the thread you started I don't think those questions are in any way misrepresenting you or your posts.

 

[37818]

Simply there exists conflicts of interpertations. Interpretations and the explicit teachings of the text need not be at odds. Yet the interperations are where the different views come apart.

A key verse which can be interperted to show sanctification of the Holy Spirit precedes regeneration:
Hebrews 10:29, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Both Calvinism and Arminianism place sanctification after regeneration. Here Arminianism wins.

 

[AustinC]

Simply there exists conflicts of interpertations. Interpretations and the explicit teachings of the text need not be at odds. Yet the interperations are where the different views come apart.

A key verse which can be interperted to show sanctification of the Holy Spirit precedes regeneration:
Hebrews 10:29, ". . . Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?"

Both Calvinism and Arminianism place sanctification after regeneration. Here Arminianism wins.

Do you realize that Hebrews 10 is discussing the New Covenant? I'm unsure how that applies to Arminians and Calvinists.

 

[37818]

For do not the Scriptures remark that He was slain before the foundations of the world were laid?

No such text.
Hebrew 9:26, ". . . For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. . . ."

 

[37818]

Realize inspite of what should be simple explanations, because such explanations involves interperations, some will not understand such arguments no matter what.

 

[AustinC]

No such text.
Hebrew 9:26, ". . . For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. . . ."

Realize inspite of what should be simple explanations, because such explanations involves interperations, some will not understand such arguments no matter what.

If one is going to quote from Hebrews 6-10, one must understand the argument the author is making about the need for a new High Priest and mediation of a New Covenant.
If a person dismisses covenant theology, that person will likely miss the point the author is making.

 

[kyredneck]

Remove "corporate election" for that is not taught in Scripture.

Spot on.

 

[atpollard]

No such text.
Hebrew 9:26, ". . . For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. . . ."

[Revelation 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[37818]

[Revelation 13:8 KJV] 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

From not before.

 

[atpollard]

From not before.

Does the Second Person of the Trinity change?
(As long as we are going to split hairs … and was He more perfect before or after the change?)

 

[37818]

Does the Second Person of the Trinity change?
(As long as we are going to split hairs … and was He more perfect before or after the change?)

Oh yes of course, as the second Person He does change, but never as God, since God never changes.

 

[Van]

"credit some of those faiths as righteousness" I have never heard anyone put it like that.

But you have read Romans 4 and so the idea that God credits our faith for our benefit must be well known to you.

This is what I'm getting at. That is called a semi-Pelagian position. It is common among American Baptists and the old revivalist preachers like Charles Finney. No, I don't agree with it but it is very popular. What confuses me is your next points:

Only false teachers call positions heretical without citing biblical support. On the other hand, total spiritual inability, the supposed human condition of those pushing the false doctrine of prevenient grace cannot be supported. No one seeks God all the time but some seek God some of the time, such as the people of Matthew 23:13.

They seem to contradict the point you made above. Especially point 2. If you can't come unless you're drawn by the Father then all the spiritual ability you need was not given to you as a human. This would be an Arminian or Calvinist position. Now you can go on a rant about how you're being misrepresented or you can begin a civil discussion. But I'm willing to bet what it will be. Let's see.

Your view is wrong, you can have the ability to believe in idols carved by hand, or in the God of the Bible. That does not say God cannot prevent you from coming to faith by hardening your heart, thus removing that initial ability. Read Romans 11 and note that God does preclude people from believing when it suits His purpose.

Nothing I wrote conflicts with any scripture, whereas your position appears to nullify verse after verse.

 

[Van]

I'm sorry Van it just sounds like you are contradicting yourself here too.

If all you are going to do is make false claims, why ask questions. There is no verse or passage that say people respond to the gospel "correctly." We do however, sometimes respond to the gospel incorrectly but God credits that flawed faith as righteousness. If it were already righteous (fully correct) it would not need to be credited. And I already addressed the idea of losing the ability to believe in Christ by (1) God hardening our heart, or (2) hardening our own heart by the practice of sin. (Hebrews 3:12-13)

 

[Van]

You see because your own bias obliges you to see

False charge based on the idiotic claim of mind reading.

But there is not corporate election found in scriptures, but individual election that builds the corporate.

Note the disregard of the evidence provided demonstrating Ephesians 1:4 must be corporate and not individual. Was this addressed? Nope

... as innate in humans.

Did anyone say or suggest our faith is "innate in humans?" Nope, so yet another strawman argument created by Calvinists to hide biblical truth.

"Our" faith is that which God gives personally to each believer according to the purpose in which He has appointed. It is "our" faith not from innate source of fallen human, but because we are endowed, empowered, authorized to become His adopted child (John 1).

If you think any of this hogwash is found in John 1 I have a bridge in Brooklyn for you...

You did. You deny your own presentation, again?

Here this falsehood poster denies I said salvation does not depend upon the person who wills or does things to be saved. Thus our efforts cannot "merit" salvation. However, this poster is allowed to post one false charge after another...

Then You deny your own words, again.

More false charges, but no quotes. This is all they have folks, non-stop falsehoods.

 

[Van]

Sorry I missed this - there was rapid posting going on. I posted it and am quoting it so you can see I'm not denying what I post. When you say that all the spiritual ability we need is given to us as humans I take that to mean that you believe there is nothing wrong with us in our own actual condition. If that's not what you mean then just say so, don't go on a rant. If your spiritual condition is not lacking any ability you need to come to Christ then I was assuming you meant that we are sinners only in that we have sinned - but are not spiritually impaired beyond that. So I said "you mean we are only sinners by deeds". In other words, even though we have sinned, which we all agree on, I was asking if you believed that in a spiritual sense we are neutral towards God, not alienated or with a bent towards hostility towards God in our natural state. Sorry, but in light of the thread you started I don't think those questions are in any way misrepresenting you or your posts.

Yet another hogwash post. Wanting to be saved actually reinforces the concept we are fatally flawed due to our fallen state.
And please do not assume my view is unbiblical nonsense.

And your implication that I hold non-biblical views is misrepresenting me and my posts.